Earth will fall [SPOILERS]

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Earth will fall

Also Kahn could of easily started a new Eugenics war if he got his crew free and started making more super humans.

That possibility wasn't even hinted at in the movie.

But it would have been inevitable, really. Augments, by definition, have superior ambition. They can't NOT conquer. They have to do it. It's in their genetic engineering. If Khan was allowed to roam free, you can bet that he'd raise an army and try to take over the Earth, if not the entire Federation. It's just what people like him do.

 

[throwback]

The last post touches on the issue, are our actions determined by our genes or our actions determined by what we taught and believe? A man can be ambitious without killing and conquering anyone.

 

[Marten]

Re: Earth will fall

Oso,

Another poster in another thread mentioned that the film set up the idea early about the danger of a warp core radiating earth, but that it was ignored after the big end crash. Did that seem to you like something that was left foolishly dangling?

I ask because I've read the end takes place well after this sequence, so you'd figure Frisco would be glowing or the bay would be leaking down into China if there really was a major accident happening (which also show why you shouldn't build starships at the base of a gravity well, but I digress.)

The idea that the Vengeance could radiate San Francisco with it's warp core has never been brought up in the movie, and when the ship crashed into the city it did nothing but destroy some buildings. Which of course still means ten thousands of death victims, but the movie ignored that completely.

However, that was just one brief scene that by no means justifies a tagline such as "Earth will fall".

Ignoring countless deaths is of course a proud TOS-tradition. At least McCoy didn't crack a joke about it.

I still think Khan can be dangerous, 200 years after he was frozen. He is genitically engineered to be better than us, both physically and mentally. He should have no problem with catching up on how wars are fought.

 

[trevanian]

The last post touches on the issue, are our actions determined by our genes or our actions determined by what we taught and believe? A man can be ambitious without killing and conquering anyone.

Not sure if the makers are familiar with Kirk's speech in "TASTE ... ARMAGEDDON" ... y'know, all that 'we're killers but we're not going to kill... today.' Maybe they have superior ambition AND superior willpower, which would offset the ambition or at least keep them from superior bad habits like cracksmoking.

 

[trevanian]

Ahh but it was an Earth ship. Marcus would have been a bit stupid if he designed a ship that would get blasted by Earth Defense?

US military aircraft broadcast a signal that basically says 'don't shoot it is me' to keep anti-missiles from launching on them when they fly near the nation's capital

(in fact, that is a prime reason some folks think what hit the pentagon on 9/11/2001 was actually a drone or military aircraft, because anything else -- like a commerical jetliner -- would have been shot down automatically.)

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

It's a relief to see that no one can come up with any really significant complaints about the movie itself so far.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

A man can be ambitious without killing and conquering anyone.

A man, yes. Not an Augment. They are a different breed altogether. The drive to conquer and kill is built into them.

And let's face it, we've all seen what Khan is like (both versions). Does that sound like somebody who doesn't want to conquer and kill? He can go on and on about all this 'revenge' crap, but in the end, he does it because he likes it.

 

[beamMe]

SPOILERS:
Earth will fall because, despite there being a space battle only 200,000 Km away, Starfleet security took no action to intervene. Earth will fall because, despite having a defence grid (mentioned in ST09 but also seen in TMP) nobody bothers to activate it to stop a ship with only one life sign on board from hitting a city and killing thousands of people. Earth will fall because people that stupid deserve everything they get.

Since you mentioned TMP; were was the fleet in that one?

 

[trevanian]

SPOILERS:
Earth will fall because, despite there being a space battle only 200,000 Km away, Starfleet security took no action to intervene. Earth will fall because, despite having a defence grid (mentioned in ST09 but also seen in TMP) nobody bothers to activate it to stop a ship with only one life sign on board from hitting a city and killing thousands of people. Earth will fall because people that stupid deserve everything they get.

Since you mentioned TMP; were was the fleet in that one?

If you go by what's said in the movie, they are far enough out that nobody can get recalled fast enough to intercept (this is in part because vger is coming at a sustained speed - 7.6? -probably higher than that of starships, which had a top cruising speed of warp 6 and were supposed to start shaking apart if you ran them too long at warp 7 or 8.)

If you figure there are still only a dozen or so starship-class available (which is debatable), there's a lot of space to be covered, so it is at least somewhat plausible that this is the only starship in interception range.

An earlier draft had vger intercepted by a light cruiser that managed to get in its way, and it basically was replaced by that gorgeous Epsilon 9 station in the movie.

 

[Phily B]

Yeah, I'm sure Admiral Marcus and S31 can't disable the defenses or have the Vengeance recognised as such.....

 

[Pauln6]

SPOILERS:
Earth will fall because, despite there being a space battle only 200,000 Km away, Starfleet security took no action to intervene. Earth will fall because, despite having a defence grid (mentioned in ST09 but also seen in TMP) nobody bothers to activate it to stop a ship with only one life sign on board from hitting a city and killing thousands of people. Earth will fall because people that stupid deserve everything they get.

Since you mentioned TMP; were was the fleet in that one?

If you go by what's said in the movie, they are far enough out that nobody can get recalled fast enough to intercept (this is in part because vger is coming at a sustained speed - 7.6? -probably higher than that of starships, which had a top cruising speed of warp 6 and were supposed to start shaking apart if you ran them too long at warp 7 or 8.)

If you figure there are still only a dozen or so starship-class available (which is debatable), there's a lot of space to be covered, so it is at least somewhat plausible that this is the only starship in interception range.

An earlier draft had vger intercepted by a light cruiser that managed to get in its way, and it basically was replaced by that gorgeous Epsilon 9 station in the movie.

Yeah - there are ships and there are starships. It is a bit silly that there were no ships at all between Klingon space and Earth but I have to respect TMP for treating space as the truly vast and terrible beast it really is.

I can imagine a starship crew out on the rim, exploring all alone, with no help - like in Alien (I even did an Alien/TMP crossover - lol). I can't imagine that in NuTrek.

 

[JarodRussell]

It appears to me that the advertising was based on an early draft of the script and not what eventually ended up on film. Which is of course nonsense, but it still looks like it.

I do think that this John Harrison thing was a last minute addition when they cast Cumberbatch. Orci & Co got to know in the middle of pre-production that everybody else already assumed they were going for Khan. So they tried to keep it a mystery as long as possible. So they cast Cumberbatch instead of Del Toro, and rewrote the script around him. Which eventually resulted in a character reveal that isn't spectacular, or even necessary. Would the film really be different with John Harrison being JUST John Harrison?

In fact, the character and the plot around him is so ambigous, it seems they couldn't decide between Khan and Gary Mitchell. I think they only made up their mind about that when they cast Cumberbatch. Both reimagined Khan and reimagined Mitchell could have done everything in the film, secretly recruited, super strength, magic healing abilities, and all that.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I still think it makes sense that Harrison is actually one of the other Augments who just took Khan as a title. Meaning: In this timeline, the real Khan was one of the ones who died before he could be revived, and Harrison took over as leader (thus the title 'Khan').

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Yeah, but he's not.

 

[beamMe]

I can imagine a starship crew out on the rim, exploring all alone, with no help ... I can't imagine that in NuTrek.

You don't have to.
You can see it in this film.

 

[Phily B]

I did find it weird they had a secret facility by Jupiter. But we never really saw how populated Earth was and if it had starships whizzing around all the time, I mean by the time of DS9 and TNG they seemingly did, but look how pathetic the defense was against The Borg....

 

[trevanian]

I can imagine a starship crew out on the rim, exploring all alone, with no help ... I can't imagine that in NuTrek.

You don't have to.
You can see it in this film.

So is this the six-weeks-from-radio-contact rim or the 5minute warp ride rim?

 

[Oso Blanco]

It appears to me that the advertising was based on an early draft of the script and not what eventually ended up on film.

To me it appears that the story of this movie was so top secret that JJ & Co. didn't even tell Paramount's marketing department what it was all about, so they had to make something up.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I still think it makes sense that Harrison is actually one of the other Augments who just took Khan as a title. Meaning: In this timeline, the real Khan was one of the ones who died before he could be revived, and Harrison took over as leader (thus the title 'Khan').

Yeah, but he's not.

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you WROTE the film.

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

I still think it makes sense that Harrison is actually one of the other Augments who just took Khan as a title. Meaning: In this timeline, the real Khan was one of the ones who died before he could be revived, and Harrison took over as leader (thus the title 'Khan').

Yeah, but he's not.

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you WROTE the film.

Ummm - maybe not necessary.