Dune 2018 (19,20,21...)

[DigificWriter]

@Timewalker I'm not going to get into an argument or debate about the merits/demerits of Expanded Dune, but I will say that the divide in the Dune fandom over that subject makes me glad that Im now a believer in Matt Martin's stance that Canon only matters to creators.

 

[Thestral]

He understands nothing of what it was really about.

To be fair, that can be true and yet he can still be accurate about the pronunciations. Plenty of Star Trek fans are masters of minutiae and technical details of starships and yet... totally miss the themes.

A quick check on the internet shows the Spider-Man films as her only "comic strip-adapted movie". So hardly a "specialty". I assume people are excited because they've actually seen her work and are impressed. The Academy of Television Arts & Sciences were so impressed that she was awarded the Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Lead Actress in a Drama Series,

Yeah I've not even seen a lot that she's in but what I have? Her charisma and presence and skill is... crazy good. She was a huge get for Dune, between her talent and also her popularity.

 

[The Wormhole]

Regardless of what Brian Herbert may or may not know about Dune, and that's a whole other discussion itself, on the matter of pronunciations since this movie uses the same pronunciations as the SyFy miniseries and with the exception of Leto, the same pronunciations as the Lynch movie, I'd say we can trust these to be the proper pronunciations.

 

[FPAlpha]

Did Zendaya have too much on her plate?

She's barely in Spider-Man.

She's barely in Dune.

She's barely in Euphoria.

Did everything suffer because Zendaya wanted three massive pay checks at the same exact time?

With Dune it was to be expected, at that point of the story she barely appears, i.e. only in Paul's dreams. The second movie will have her assume a much more central role, so she'll have much more to do.

I wouldn't say she's barely in Spiderman - the story revolves around Peter but she is still in enough scenes as a supporting actress to make an impact ( and she's part of one of the best scenes of the movie with her and Garfield).

I haven't seen Euphoria so can't comment but she is a highly sought after actress at the moment and well on her way to be able to have projects written for her rather than be chosen ( i doubt she has to audition much these days). So as with any A lister her plate will be constantly full for a while, as much as she chooses.

 

[DigificWriter]

@Guy Gardener Why would Zendaya 'barely be' in a series in which she's the lead (Euphoria)?

That makes very little sense, so I think you're mistaken there.

 

[JD]

With Dune it was to be expected, at that point of the story she barely appears, i.e. only in Paul's dreams. The second movie will have her assume a much more central role, so she'll have much more to do.

I'm not sure, but I think I've read some comments in interviews that said that she's basically the second lead for Dune Part 2.

 

[Guy Gardener]

@Guy Gardener Why would Zendaya 'barely be' in a series in which she's the lead (Euphoria)?

That makes very little sense, so I think you're mistaken there.

It's an ensemble, and Judd Apatow's real life daughter took over the last three episodes as we watched an audience watch her play about everything that had ever happened in the Euphoria world.

 

[Guy Gardener]

With Dune it was to be expected, at that point of the story she barely appears, i.e. only in Paul's dreams. The second movie will have her assume a much more central role, so she'll have much more to do.

I wouldn't say she's barely in Spiderman - the story revolves around Peter but she is still in enough scenes as a supporting actress to make an impact ( and she's part of one of the best scenes of the movie with her and Garfield).

I haven't seen Euphoria so can't comment but she is a highly sought after actress at the moment and well on her way to be able to have projects written for her rather than be chosen ( i doubt she has to audition much these days). So as with any A lister her plate will be constantly full for a while, as much as she chooses.

The two extra stunt Peters stole a lot of time/lines from Ned and MJ.

 

[Timewalker]

A quick check on the internet shows the Spider-Man films as her only "comic strip-adapted movie". So hardly a "specialty". I assume people are excited because they've actually seen her work and are impressed. The Academy of Television Arts & Sciences were so impressed that she was awarded the Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Lead Actress in a Drama Series,

Every time I've seen people talk about her, it's been in the context of Spider-Man. So that's the impression I got.

@Timewalker I'm not going to get into an argument or debate about the merits/demerits of Expanded Dune, but I will say that the divide in the Dune fandom over that subject makes me glad that Im now a believer in Matt Martin's stance that Canon only matters to creators.

I have no idea who Matt Martin is, and don't recall any laws saying that someone needs "creator" status to care about canon.

To be fair, that can be true and yet he can still be accurate about the pronunciations. Plenty of Star Trek fans are masters of minutiae and technical details of starships and yet... totally miss the themes.



Yeah I've not even seen a lot that she's in but what I have? Her charisma and presence and skill is... crazy good. She was a huge get for Dune, between her talent and also her popularity.

What talent? Honestly, I've seen numerous examples of her mumbling her way through her lines in the review/reaction videos on YT, and I've yet to see or hear anything that screams "OMFG, THIS WOMAN IS TALENTED! I MUST SPEND PART OF MY TELECOM CREDITS ON WATCHING THIS ON-DEMAND!"

Two other actresses have played Chani: Sean Young and Barbora Kodetova. While neither were ideal (due to being obviously older than Chani was in the novel), Kodetova gave a good impression of older Chani (ie. no longer a teenager, who could plausibly sneak up on and threaten to slit Irulan's throat when she discovered that Irulan had been slipping contraceptives into her food so she would not be able to bear any children to Paul; remember that Irulan was Bene Gesserit-trained so she should not have been caught unaware like that and probably wouldn't have by a non-Fremen).

I'm not sure, but I think I've read some comments in interviews that said that she's basically the second lead for Dune Part 2.

Let's see... Part 2 would have the Water of Life ceremony (Jessica becomes a Reverend Mother and so does Alia, who is still a fetus), Alia is born, Paul inherits Harah and her sons... all Chani has to do with this is being consecrated as a kind of backup candidate for the Water of Life ceremony if Jessica can't do it.

It's mentioned vaguely in the novel that Chani bears a son, whom they name Leto, but of course this is not the same Leto who becomes Leto II, the God Emperor. Chani fights off a few of the Fremen who want to challenge Paul; she makes it look like it's no big deal, and they have a bit of a tiff about it (apparently it's not proper for a Fremen woman to kill someone who wants to challenge her mate, or at least Paul seems a bit upset about it). When Paul takes the Water of Life, Chani has to come back to the sietch to figure out how to prove he isn't dead.

Sounds like a lot. But there's a lot she isn't involved with, like the Fremen making life hell for the smugglers and Harkonnens, and Gurney's only comment about her is "She is your woman." Gurney evidently doesn't see Chani as Paul's Duchess, just a Fremen concubine.

So while she does have some significant things going on in the second half, making her the lead? OH, COME ON.

 

[DigificWriter]

@Timewalker Matt Martin is a member of the Lucasfilm Story Group who was also immortalized in official Star Wars Canon as the Rebels character Mart Mattin.

And you don't need to listen to his thoughts on Canon, but for me, taking his stance has made it a lot easier to engage with the various fandoms I follow because I'm less likely to be critical if something doesn't seem to fit narratively.

 

[JD]

Every time I've seen people talk about her, it's been in the context of Spider-Man. So that's the impression I got.


I have no idea who Matt Martin is, and don't recall any laws saying that someone needs "creator" status to care about canon.


What talent? Honestly, I've seen numerous examples of her mumbling her way through her lines in the review/reaction videos on YT, and I've yet to see or hear anything that screams "OMFG, THIS WOMAN IS TALENTED! I MUST SPEND PART OF MY TELECOM CREDITS ON WATCHING THIS ON-DEMAND!"

Two other actresses have played Chani: Sean Young and Barbora Kodetova. While neither were ideal (due to being obviously older than Chani was in the novel), Kodetova gave a good impression of older Chani (ie. no longer a teenager, who could plausibly sneak up on and threaten to slit Irulan's throat when she discovered that Irulan had been slipping contraceptives into her food so she would not be able to bear any children to Paul; remember that Irulan was Bene Gesserit-trained so she should not have been caught unaware like that and probably wouldn't have by a non-Fremen).


Let's see... Part 2 would have the Water of Life ceremony (Jessica becomes a Reverend Mother and so does Alia, who is still a fetus), Alia is born, Paul inherits Harah and her sons... all Chani has to do with this is being consecrated as a kind of backup candidate for the Water of Life ceremony if Jessica can't do it.

It's mentioned vaguely in the novel that Chani bears a son, whom they name Leto, but of course this is not the same Leto who becomes Leto II, the God Emperor. Chani fights off a few of the Fremen who want to challenge Paul; she makes it look like it's no big deal, and they have a bit of a tiff about it (apparently it's not proper for a Fremen woman to kill someone who wants to challenge her mate, or at least Paul seems a bit upset about it). When Paul takes the Water of Life, Chani has to come back to the sietch to figure out how to prove he isn't dead.

Sounds like a lot. But there's a lot she isn't involved with, like the Fremen making life hell for the smugglers and Harkonnens, and Gurney's only comment about her is "She is your woman." Gurney evidently doesn't see Chani as Paul's Duchess, just a Fremen concubine.

So while she does have some significant things going on in the second half, making her the lead? OH, COME ON.

You might want to spoiler code that since you're got some pretty MASSIVE spoilers in there for people who haven't read the books. I skipped over half your post since I haven't read anything beyond the first book.

 

[Thestral]

What talent? Honestly, I've seen numerous examples of her mumbling her way through her lines in the review/reaction videos on YT, and I've yet to see or hear anything that screams "OMFG, THIS WOMAN IS TALENTED! I MUST SPEND PART OF MY TELECOM CREDITS ON WATCHING THIS ON-DEMAND!"

Different strokes for different folks, of course. She may not do anything for you and that's fine. But you asked why everybody was so excited by her casting and it's because of her resume and reputation.

So while she does have some significant things going on in the second half, making her the lead? OH, COME ON.

Presumably aside from the material she has in the book they'll put her in scenes where she may not have appeared but it would be perfectly reasonable for her to - like leading attacks on smugglers and Harkonnens, for example. Not unlike Arwen, really.

 

[Timewalker]

You might want to spoiler code that since you're got some pretty MASSIVE spoilers in there for people who haven't read the books. I skipped over half your post since I haven't read anything beyond the first book.

You want me to spoiler code comments about a book that was published in 1965? (parts of Messiah and Children were being written at the same time that Dune was) Or rather half of it? Sorry, but I don't have my copy of Dune handy to know which page the movie stopped on. I just read the spoiler rules for this forum and it says six months from the first airing of whatever. Well, it's been well over six months since Dune Messiah and Children of Dune were published. FFS, it's been over 25 years since Chapterhouse was published. Dune Messiah does not exist on film except as part of a TV miniseries that aired in 2003. So again - well outside the 6-month rule, and no theatrical movie has been made of it.

Even the TrekLit forum isn't that strict. And a certain someone in this thread very kindly spoiled THE FIRST THREE EPISODES OF THE NEW SEASON of the Handmaid's Tale just hours after it had dropped on Hulu, blithely ignoring my request to take into account that not everyone got to see it at the same time, or even the same day. He carried on spoiling the entire season like that. So to the person who "liked" your post, pot meet kettle.

I strongly suggest you read Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. ASAP. It is impossible to adequately discuss Dune without referring to those novels, as they are the ones that tell Paul's story. At least the ones by Frank Herbert. If you want to include the bullshit that was made up by KJA/BH, add in Paul of Dune and Winds of Dune and House Corrino. And avoid the Dune Encyclopedia, since you might actually read the real story of the Butlerian Jihad, which is nothing like the crap in the Legends books.

For that matter, the entire six-book series has been discussed numerous times by numerous people in this thread. Do all of us have to go back and spoiler-tag our posts?

Besides, Villeneuve has demonstrated his willingness to just make shit up, maybe nothing I mentioned will be in the second movie. And if he gets the go-ahead for the second novel, maybe he'll just make stuff up for that as well. After all, Frank Herbert originally wrote a different ending for one of the characters but (thankfully) changed his mind. Maybe Villeneuve will choose the original ending, rather than the canon one. Given his changes so far, it wouldn't surprise me (see, not saying who, what, where, how...).

Presumably aside from the material she has in the book they'll put her in scenes where she may not have appeared but it would be perfectly reasonable for her to - like leading attacks and smugglers and Harkonnens, for example. Not unlike Arwen, really.

I assume you're referring to a female character in the LOTR movie, who I know about vaguely, but not much, since I haven't read the books or seen the movies so I have no idea what you're talking about?

Shall I run around now, complaining about spoiler codes on your post, for a set of movies that came out years ago and books that came out decades ago?

Actually, what you're suggesting would probably be reasonable in most action movies, but not when it's something that doesn't mesh with the in-universe culture. Yes, the Fremen women are fierce fighters, and will even sacrifice their own children if it means the result is a dead Harkonnen. But leading attacks on Harkonnens and smugglers? If that shows up, Villeneuve will once again be making stuff up, for the benefit of an actress he likes but for plot points that are not in the novel he pretends to be faithfully following.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

Technically this story ends with Part II, and if we get 3rd movie it will be an adaptation of the second book, Dune Messiah.

That's a BIG 'if.'

Saw the movie again as a part of my buying it digitally from the Microsoft store to play on my Xbox One (it wouldn't let me rent the movie otherwise); it's now grown on me somewhat after I was disappointed seeing it in theaters initially (it didn't help that when I saw it in the theater [Scotiabank Theater in Toronto] it was the last show of the night, and I fell asleep due to my being tired and the theater having quite comfortable chairs), and I await a sequel (I'm disappointed at the removal of the banquet scene and the lack of ordinary people in Arrakeen as was shown in the 2000 TV mini-series.)

 

[thribs]

That's a BIG 'if.'

Saw the movie again as a part of my buying it digitally from the Microsoft store to play on my Xbox One (it wouldn't let me rent the movie otherwise); it's now grown on me somewhat after I was disappointed seeing it in theaters initially (it didn't help that when I saw it in the theater [Scotiabank Theater in Toronto] it was the last show of the night, and I fell asleep due to my being tired and the theater having quite comfortable chairs), and I await a sequel (am disappointed at the removal of the banquet and the last of ordinary people in Arrakeen as was shown in the 2000 TV mini-series)

If you have movies anywhere you should be able to link it so you can watch it on other platforms.
I believe the banquet and him meeting the Princess was something exclusive to that version. They wanted her to have more screen time and hence added more scenes in

 

[jaime]

Going by that, Einstein's theory of relativity is incorrect and space battles are conducted in 2 dimensions, not 3. And at some point they're going to mention how Paul - who was born on Caladan and never went off-planet until going to Arrakis, ran away on a Highliner at age 12, with his friend Bronso of Ix, to join the Jongleurs.

Assuming Villeneuve goes ahead with Dune Messiah, we're going to be told that oops, the first movie depicts a propaganda tract written by Princess Irulan on Paul's orders, to make his religion more palatable to the masses, and in fact Paul was born on Kaitain when Jessica was "invited" (ordered) to go there to become a lady-in-waiting to Shaddam's Empress... and nothing of the original novel is true. Only stuff written by KJA/BH is true, which means bringing in cymeks, cyborgs, robots, a gorefest of torture and cannibalism (the Tleilaxu and Erasmus both seem to love that), and at some point Norma F. Cenva will come to save everyone because the Atreides are too inept to do it themselves.

THAT is what you get if you go by "Brian's vision" (which I suspect is more KJA's vision, since it's so cartoonishly awful).

Axolotl tanks alone soured me on the whole thing

 

[Shaka Zulu]

If you have movies anywhere you should be able to link it so you can watch it on other platforms.
I believe the banquet and him meeting the Princess was something exclusive to that version. They wanted her to have more screen time and hence added more scenes in

The meeting the Princess part was a part of the 2000 miniseries and not in the book, but the formal banquet is a part of the book and was featured in the miniseries; along with having scenes of the average person living and working in Arrakeen (that was one part of the miniseries I wished the director had included along with the banquet.)

 

[wayoung]

The meeting the Princess part was a part of the 2000 miniseries and not in the book, but the formal banquet is a part of the book and was featured in the miniseries; along with having scenes of the average person living and working in Arrakeen (that was one part of the miniseries I wished the director had included along with the banquet.)

Yup. The banquet is a big part of the book, and one of Herbert's fav scenes that he regretted was cut from Lynch's film. There's a lot going on through it. Very much the illustration of "wheels within wheels, plots within plots". In the miniseries they replaced the "pretty little airhead", who is part of a conspiracy with the water seller to seduce Paul, with Irulan, and then also added Paul's terrible impersonation of the Baron while Gurney plays the baliset and then Paul and Irulan try to out whine each other.

But it is pretty boring. My first viewing I took off to pee when I thought it was about to happen and missed the Sardaukur ritual instead.

 

[Timewalker]

Axolotl tanks alone soured me on the whole thing

Yeah, that was pretty stomach-turning.

Yup. The banquet is a big part of the book, and one of Herbert's fav scenes that he regretted was cut from Lynch's film. There's a lot going on through it. Very much the illustration of "wheels within wheels, plots within plots". In the miniseries they replaced the "pretty little airhead", who is part of a conspiracy with the water seller to seduce Paul, with Irulan, and then also added Paul's terrible impersonation of the Baron while Gurney plays the baliset and then Paul and Irulan try to out whine each other.

Paul was a whiny brat in the miniseries. Irulan (and her servant) were used in place of when Margot Fenring was supposed to seduce Feyd and conceive a daughter with him, to preserve the Harkonnen genes. Irulan visited Giedi Prime, and pretended to fawn all over Feyd for being such a wonderful fighter, and when he was expecting sex with her, sent in her servant instead. This was Irulan going on a fact-finding mission to find out what the Harkonnens knew about Paul and Jessica's disappearance, and had nothing to do with Margot's assignment from the Bene Gesserit. It's disappointing that so far all filmed versions of this book have ignored Margot Fenring.

 

[JD]

OK this is a bit of a shock.
Christopher Walken has been cast as Shadam IV. That is definitely not a name that ever crossed my mind for Dune.