Dukat and Iliana Ghemor

[JD]

I just watched the DS9 episode Ties of Blood & Water, the one where Tekeny Ghemore dies, and Dukat's comment about Iliana brought the big reveal of Dukat holding her captive to mind, and it bothers me. I looked back on my comments when I first read the book, and it didn't bother much then, but now, while rewatching the show it does. Dukat is a evil bastard at times, but I don't really see him as that evil, or cruel.

 

[ryan123450]

Apparently the Dukat you knew him as was a 'nice' facade, hidding his even worse real self.

 

[Christopher]

Dukat is a evil bastard at times, but I don't really see him as that evil, or cruel.

Tell that to the millions of Bajorans who died under his watch. He didn't see himself as cruel, but like most tyrants, he was fundamentally lacking in self-awareness.

 

[Mage]

I'm with @ryan123450 on this. During Waltz, we already saw what kind of sick, twisted mind Dukat had. I think that it fits his character

 

[JD]

Tell that to the millions of Bajorans who died under his watch. He didn't see himself as cruel, but like most tyrants, he was fundamentally lacking in self-awareness.

Of course, but I guess to me holding someone captive for years, and torturing and raping them, is a whole other level of cruel.
With the stuff he did during the Occupation, that was a hands off kind of thing, where he was just giving the orders, and not doing it all himself, face to face.

 

[Mage]

Of course, but I guess to me holding someone captive for years, and torturing and raping them, is a whole other level of cruel.
With the stuff he did during the Occupation, that was a hands off kind of thing, where he was just giving the orders, and not doing it all himself, face to face.

I can't remember being said he never got his own hands dirty.

 

[Kilana2]

Dukat's actions in the novels were believable. The show just scratched the surface when it comes to his wrongdoings. I have in mind all the things he did to the Bajorans in the Terok Nor novels (I don't want to elaborate just in case someone hasn't read them yet).

 

[JD]

I'll admit, I don't remember those books at all really.

I can't remember being said he never got his own hands dirty.

Ok, I'll give you that.

 

[Christopher]

Of course, but I guess to me holding someone captive for years, and torturing and raping them, is a whole other level of cruel.

Except he also took Bajoran slave women to service him sexually -- which is also rape, no matter how he tried to make it look "kind" and "generous," because a slave is unable to give consent. His "kindness" was all about exerting control, keeping women dependent on his indulgence, and always knowing that he could retract his favor and put them through hell if they didn't submit. What he did to Iliana was the flipside of that same coin.

With the stuff he did during the Occupation, that was a hands off kind of thing, where he was just giving the orders, and not doing it all himself, face to face.

And how does that make the slightest bit of difference? He was still giving the orders. He was still responsible for all of it. If he was depraved and uncaring enough to inflict so much suffering and death on millions with the stroke of a stylus, how could he not be depraved and uncaring enough to torture one person face-to-face? It's all part and parcel of an abusive, narcissistic psyche. All his excuses and defenses for his behavior were just classic gaslighting, the abuser convincing his victims that the things he did to them were their own fault for not appreciating him. There's not that much difference, psychologically, between an abusive partner and an abusive national leader. The latter just acts out the same patterns on a much larger scale and has far more victims.

 

[Sci]

Is it really so hard to believe that the Cardassian Hans Frank would kidnap a woman and rape her, too?

 

[JD]

Except he also took Bajoran slave women to service him sexually -- which is also rape, no matter how he tried to make it look "kind" and "generous," because a slave is unable to give consent. His "kindness" was all about exerting control, keeping women dependent on his indulgence, and always knowing that he could retract his favor and put them through hell if they didn't submit. What he did to Iliana was the flipside of that same coin.

I have to admit, I hadn't thought of this in relation to what he did to Iliana.

And how does that make the slightest bit of difference? He was still giving the orders. He was still responsible for all of it. If he was depraved and uncaring enough to inflict so much suffering and death on millions with the stroke of a stylus, how could he not be depraved and uncaring enough to torture one person face-to-face? It's all part and parcel of an abusive, narcissistic psyche. All his excuses and defenses for his behavior were just classic gaslighting, the abuser convincing his victims that the things he did to them were their own fault for not appreciating him. There's not that much difference, psychologically, between an abusive partner and an abusive national leader. The latter just acts out the same patterns on a much larger scale and has far more victims.

I was thinking that since he didn't do it himself it wasn't as bad, but I realize now that isn't the case. Especially once I put into real world terms for myself with people like Adolf Hitler and Saddam Husein. They didn't necessarily do all the horrible stuff themselves, but that didn't change the fact that they were still some of the absolute worst people to ever live.

You guys have convinced me that I was wrong.

 

[Enterprise1701]

For reference, her name is spelled "Iliana Ghemor".

 

[JD]

Yeah, I realized I misspelled it just as I hit the post thread button.

 

[Tosk]

I still reckon Alaimo is to blame for all these "He's not that bad, he's just misunderstood" people. He plays Dukat so well that he not only convinces some of the characters with his lies and self-delusions, but people in the real world too.

 

[Christopher]

I still reckon Alaimo is to blame for all these "He's not that bad, he's just misunderstood" people. He plays Dukat so well that he not only convinces some of the characters with his lies and self-delusions, but people in the real world too.

Yeah, but it fits. Real-life tyrants are often charming in person. That's part of how they're able to gain power, through their ability to fool people about what they really are. Again, it's much the same psychology as abusive spouses/partners, who are able to be quite charming and convincing in their shows of love and repentance in between assaults. It's just another side of the manipulation and control they use.

 

[JD]

Ok, so I just watched A Time to Stand, the first episode after The Dominion takes over DS9, and there is a scene with Dukat and Kira in his office that does make me reconsider my position. I can definitely see the potential for what he did to Iliana just in the seriously creepy way he acts towards Kira in that whole scene.

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

His keeping Ghemor locked up looking like Kira was probably one of my favorite threads in that era of the books (not to sound awful) because that was when I finally really, really appreciated how awful Dukat was. Yeah, you know about the occupation and tragedy, but through Ghemor we saw a first hand experience and then you can finally multiply that horror to the thousands, if not, millions of Bajorans that died. And she was Cardassian! His crimes on Bajor, I realized, really felt like an abstraction since we barely scratched the surface on the series until I learned about Ghemor.

 

[Jbarney]

I just finished reading these....and it was pretty impressive.

 

[DS9Continuing]

The way I had it described to me once was that what he did to Iliana was the pressure valve that allowed him to present the charming and urbane front to the rest of the world. That the two aspects are not contradictory, but all part of the same thing.

His simultaneous needs to both seduce Nerys as a symbol of conquering Bajor, and to protect her thanks to his fucked-up image of himself as her father figure, is what led to him kidnapping Iliana. That way he could work off his darker Nerys-shaped urges on Iliana while keeping the real Nerys safe, thanks to the sentimental promise he made to Meru. The fact that it meant repeatedly raping a loyal Cardassian citizen whose father was a colleague and superior of his, to the point where it drove her insane, while simultaneously ruining an important Obsidian Order intelligence operation, was neither here nor there.

But then, what Corbin Entek did to her was hardly nice either. He leaked info to the Bajoran resistance that would result in the death of Iliana's boyfriend (with the negligible collateral damage of a house full of loyal Cardassian soldiers) purely so that her grief would drive her to join the Order, so that he could then have her replace the very same person who he had allowed to kill her boyfriend.

It was basically a pissing match between Entek and Dukat as to who got to do the most horrible thing to her.

.