Spoilers DSC S2's final battle holds its own up against Avengers: Endgame and GoT

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by The Butter Phantom, Apr 29, 2019.

  1. serabine

    serabine Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Bias is in the air
    In the whisper of the trees
    Bias is in the air
    In the thunder of the sea

    Just for you I loaded up the episode again to check what Georgiou is saying ("You should know, I've magnetized the spore cube. Enjoy." ) So they explicitly tell you what she was doing at the console after she lured Leland there and trapped him in the spore chamber.

    I also did what I was too lazy to do in my original post and checked in which episode Spock kills the other puppet of Control. It was In the Valley of Shadows. So they expected the audience to be able to retain the information that you can defeat such a puppet with strong magnets for two episodes/weeks. And it's not like it was a blink and you miss it minor detail that would be unrealistic to expect people to remember, it was a pretty big scene.

    I had not watched In the Valley of Shadows since it aired before watching the final episode, and I had no trouble whatsoever to understand what Georgiou was doing once she said she had magnetized the chamber. Because it wasn't just two "random pieces of dialogue". They showed us in action what strong magnets can do to the nanites, so that Georgiou could do it again without us being completely confused as to what is going on (provided we paid attention). That is classic setup and payoff.
     
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  2. Serveaux

    Serveaux The Man Premium Member

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    What "final battle?" The interminable and repetitive CG flashes and little specks of light?

    Honestly, the ship-to-ship fighting was expensively executed Lame.
     
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  3. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    With the advent of modern CG allowing BIG EPIC BATTLES to be a thing, I have to say, I'm starting to feel that when it comes to battles, less is more. Honestly, something like the Death Star trench run in Star Wars, or the Enterprise and Reliant facing off in the Mutara Nebula in TWOK are far more gripping and engaging than these huge ass CG affairs that all battles in modern TV and movies are. Hell, even the final Dominion War battle in WYLB, 90% of which was recycled footage from other Dominion War battles was still far more enthralling than most battles done on TV or movies in the last decade.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2019
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  4. Serveaux

    Serveaux The Man Premium Member

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    Pretty much. Lavish effects no longer are remarkable; how well is a scene designed?
     
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  5. Harpsichord

    Harpsichord Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Georgiou also mentions that she went over Burnham's report on Gant in SSS pt 1 so really they didn't even let an episode go by without alluding to the magnetization.
     
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  6. serabine

    serabine Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Great! Than it's actually a classic example of setup --> reminder --> payoff.
     
  7. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The battle made for some great fireworks. And I love fireworks. I need to put "Such Sweet Sorrow, Part II" to the sound of the Boston Pops.
     
  8. Enterprise is Great

    Enterprise is Great Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Haven't seen Endgame yet. GOT and DSC had great battle scenes but one was a land battle and the other was a space battle. It's apples and oranges to me. They were both great so that's where I'm leaving it at.
     
  9. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Although I loved it, Endgame didn't feel quite as emotional to me as Disco. Probably because Trek will always be my thing and I love Spock so.
     
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  10. Cyrus

    Cyrus Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I feel the reverse. Yes the GoT battle was dark (though OK when I adjusted the brightness on my TV) and confusing but still more coherent than the Discovery battle. And the darkness and confusion was intentional, as it successfully created a sense of dread that enhanced the episode. The GoT writers and directors are better story tellers than those in Discovery, or any other TV series for that matter so that is nothing to be ashamed of.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2019
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  11. StarMan

    StarMan Fleet Admiral Premium Member

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    I don't get the whole "it's too dark" argument. For me, having an army that large and powerful - one that you hear screaming towards you out of the dark was absolutely terrifying. I really felt we had a proper POV of what our heroes were seeing. Sheer, unassailable horror masked in darkness.
     
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  12. Serveaux

    Serveaux The Man Premium Member

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    I like seeing things.
     
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  13. serabine

    serabine Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Weirdo.
     
  14. STR

    STR Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    What you don't seem to get is thats a lazy deus ex machina. Nobody ever said the chamber could do this neat trick before. So it doesn't matter that Spock demoed the trick already, because there was no way to connect it to anything on Disocovery until (and this is a sign of bad writing) the character announces exactly what she was doing as she was doing it.

    Also, I really don't think you understand what "bias" means either.

    Yes, the darkness was a deliberate choice. Its meant to obscure unimportant parts of the action to give you a taste of the chaos of battle. Even then, you could pretty much see what was going on. People need to calibrate their screens.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2019
  15. SolarisOne

    SolarisOne Captain Captain

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    Actually, I think some of Murray Gold's scores would be perfect.
     
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  16. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I had to look up who Murray Gold is and, yes, that would work! I binged the first eight seasons of the new Doctor Who in 2013 (along with bits and pieces of the original series), and haven't gotten around to watching anything with Peter Capaldi or Jodie Whittaker yet, but I really got a Whovian vibe from the episode at different points. It felt like a big, rush-to-the-finish, end of the season Doctor Who outing where they pulled out all the stops.

    Hell, switching Captains on Discovery is kind of like switching Doctors. And changing the setting like Disco has done for the third season isn't outside of Doctor Who's wheel box, new or old.

    I haven't seen Game of Thrones at all, so I can't comment on GOT's vs. DSC's battle, but I strongly suspect it's apples and oranges.

    I did like the battle in "Such Sweet Sorrow" better than anything on DS9 because if it's really an Epic Battle with the Universe at stake, then it shouldn't be short. It should actually last most of the episode, like it did here. Which is not to slight anything done on DS9 in the '90s. Had they been able to afford to make longer-lasting battles, and CGI were at the point where it is now, they probably would've done a battle where it lasted for an entire episode at least once.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2019
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  17. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    This is my view as well. I have zero investment in GoT and Marvel has cooled substantially. Star Trek is my thing and I have a bit more investment than in other properties. As I said earlier, I'm biased but I don't think these are valid comparisons.
     
  18. The Butter Phantom

    The Butter Phantom Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Something I want to point out, I said "holds its own" and not "is better than"...
     
  19. David cgc

    David cgc Admiral Premium Member

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    If you ask me, the real problem is that nothing about the magnetization required anything special when Spock did it. It was just a random deck plate, so why didn't they rig the Discovery's decks to do it on-demand in case Control boarded them, or, for failing that, why didn't Georgiou set the bridge lab's deck to do it rather than trying to unlock the door? I don't see any good reason to herd Leland halfway across the ship except to make the episode longer.
     
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  20. serabine

    serabine Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    So now you're complaining that they are not spoon-feeding you information. And hilariously, the wrong information.

    The spore chamber being able to be magnetized is not a "neat trick" that is inherent to it. And Georgiou did not lure Leland to the chamber because it could be magnetized, specifically. When Spock kills the Control puppet he spells out exactly how he did it:

    "Once I realized the nanobots contained ferromagnetic materials, I had to calculate the correct electrical current to run through the metal on the ship's floor to immobilize them. I apologize for being so slow."

    That's it. All that is needed is a metal surface, the right current, and a bit of time to set it up. Spock had the time because Control was focused on Michael and ignored him. Georgiou needed time to set it up, which is kinda hard in the middle of fighting Leland. So she lures him to the spore chamber, where they show, don't tell you exactly why she's doing it. They show Leland bashing on the glass or transparent aluminium or whatever the thing is constructed out of, and it holds for now. Which informs you why she chose the chamber:
    • it's a contained space she can lure him to
    • that she can lock
    • which is sturdy enough to keep Leland in one place for long enough for her to run a current through the metal of the floor
    It's not a deus ex machina. They set up the method of Leland's demise two episodes prior (and as Harpischord pointed out specifically established this as something Georgiou knows about in Such Sweet Sorrow 1), they established that any metal surface can be magnetized with a current in Valley of Shadows but that you need a bit of time to set it up, and what they are not outright telling you ("You should know, I've magnetized the spore cube") they show you (the cube withstanding Lelands attempts to escape while Georgiou is at the computer to set up the current to complete her trap).
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2019