DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

[Pemmer Harge]

Ah, I regret that I'm so predictable!

Nor the Battle to the Strong is a good instalment which ties in with the darker mood we saw in The Ship and it's nice to see them actually do something with the Klingon situation. That said, I don't quite share the love many people have for this episode - it's solid but I didn't find it quite as involving as the last few.

Shadow Dancing on the other hand... Well, it's possibly the biggest spectacle in Babylon 5 - the moment when the Shadow fleet shows up is unforgettable. It's a really exciting, dramatic event episode and it might just have the best ending of any B5 episode (well, maybe not better than Sleeping in Light, but that was the end of the series).

 

[Sykonee]

Ah, I regret that I'm so predictable!

Actually, it's more of a joke that the two of you seem to be the dedicated 'follow-up' posters in this thread right now.

 

[Seven of Five]

Old habits and all that. I'm not really at the BBS that much at the moment either!

I'm a big fan of Nor the Battle... as it's a showcase for Jake, which seemed to get rarer and rarer as the show went on. It's such a harrowing experience for him, and doesn't portray him in a positive way at all. That's the point though - I find it more realistic that he reacts as he does, as I would probably be exatly the same. War is so visceral, and DS9 was good at giving us episodes that focussed on the negativities it. The comfort his father gave him at the end was the perfect coda, and the episode really is one of my favourites from season five.

So, typically, B5 layeth the smack down with Shadow Dancing. I'm glad Franklin finally gets a bit of closure, though his conversation with himself could have been a bit more orignally done. The rest of the episode raises it's game though - the epic battle is marvellously done, really sticking it to the Shadows. I also loved the bit where Ivanova was trying to fashion a comfy bead from Minbari pillows. And of course, the cliffhanger. When Anna showed up my jaw dropped to the floor! And at that particular moment in time, when Delenn was watching over John! Brilliant! However will they top it?

So I agree, B5 wins. But both were good.

 

[Eyes]

Ok, Nor the Battle didn't win...

Fine, I can live with it...



Anyway, all I can say is that B5 episode must have been really good to beat Nor the Battle, because in my opinion, its one of the greatest hours of TV of all time.

Yes, I'm trying to comment without having seen one of the shows, but this seems to be another Event>Character week, which is fine if you rate those higher.

 

[Seven of Five]

Like I said, I love Nor The Battle... It's just up against B5 at it's peak really, which is a shame. Well, not a shame - I guess people watching both at the time were quite happy! I believe DS9 will hold its own though this season.

 

[DevilEyes]

Ok, Nor the Battle didn't win...

Fine, I can live with it...



Anyway, all I can say is that B5 episode must have been really good to beat Nor the Battle, because in my opinion, its one of the greatest hours of TV of all time.

Yes, I'm trying to comment without having seen one of the shows, but this seems to be another Event>Character week, which is fine if you rate those higher.

I feel the same, and I'm not even a Jake fan like you! NTBTTS is definitely in my top DS9 episodes. That B5 episode must be really damn good...

 

[Sykonee]

Week 8: (Ending 11.03.96)
DS9 - The Assignment (Airdate 10.28.96)
VOY - Sacred Ground (Airdate 10.30.96)
B5 - Z'ha'dum (Airdate 10.31.96)

So how much has DS9 improved over the years, you ask? Take this week's episode, which is your standard Alien Possession plot with a technobabble climax, coupled with a Rom sub-plot, and you'd be hearing the deathknell were this from any of the first three seasons of DS9 (or any current season of VOY, zing!). And yes, these things do hamper The Assignment overall. Yet, given the material, Meany and Chao turn in quite the compelling bit of adversarial acting here. It's like she's become an incredibly vindictive manipulative wife, and he has no choice but to play nice for all to see. I'm sure there are many embittered couples out there that can relate. It seems, no matter how weak a plot might be, DS9 always manages to give strong character episodes these days.

VOY, on the other hand... er, what just happened here? "It was all meaningless" sure got repeated a lot in Sacred Ground, and although it's the most obvious of quips, I can't think of a better one. This seems to be another Science vs Religion episode, where the Leap Of Faith (religion) is supposed to be the victor. I can buy into that premise, but watching Janeway's trials wasn't terribly interesting, nor did I feel she really ever let go of her analytical mind in the end. The Oldsum Three basically stated that she was going to have to walk into the field, so surely that must be the answer to this riddle. Ultimately though, I don't like this episode because the set-up is so stupid -I cannot believe that Kes would be that incautious, or that she and Neelix would ever have been allowed near such a dangerous holy sight in the first place.

So one middling episode versus one mediocre episode versus one season finale, and a B5 season finale no less (that show has earned quite the reputation for great season finales so far...). Yeah, B5 wins again. It may be very exposition heavy -Z'ha'dum is basically the What's Really Going On episode, which is quite welcomed in an arc heavy series with so many mysteries- but definetely a better outing than the other two. The Shadow Manifesto does have a certain sick logic to it. Oh, and if you thought the previous episode had one whopper of an ending...

Weekly Winner
B5

Next:
DS9 - Trials And Tribble-ations
VOY - Future's End
B5 - The Hour Of The Wolf

Next update won't be for at least half a week (maybe more), as I'm moving to a new pad now. Yay change of scenery!

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Ah, Z'ha'dum. What's really good about this episode is the emotional rawness of it all. Relationship drama can be a mixed blessing in sci-fi shows, but here it's actually at the heart of what makes the episode great. Both the previous two B5 season finales ended with things pretty much going to hell and made the audience wonder what was going to come next, but this one makes you think "OK, what just happened? Where does this leave us?!!". An excellent episode.

Funnily enough, The Assignment actually has some similarities to Z'ha'dum (wife comes back from alien planet altered and with mysterious agenda), but obviously it's not on the same level (not because it's DS9, but because it's just not a major episode and doesn't seem to set out to be one). That said, this is a good episode - I like Rosalind Chao and I think she and Colm Meaney did a good job here. It's worth noting that this is the episode that introduced the Pah Wraiths, a plot element that I'm not keen on, but this is hands down the best ever use of them.

 

[mattyhugh]

If you go to Za'ha'dum, you will die.

 

[Tulaberry whine]

Yeah, as much as loved The Assignment (Keiko/Chao really are unfairly hated on by some Niners), Babylon 5 has it all over the Treks this week. I actually remember where and when I first saw Z'ha'dum - awesome stuff!

In retrospect, however, the quality of B5 went over the cliff as well with Z'ha'dum. The show never came close to consistently matching the quality of the great moments of seasons two and three again.

I understand there were some behind the scenes turmoil, unfortunately the problems were really rather obvious to me from the beginning of season 4. I found the progress and resolutions of the major story arcs from here on incredibly and frustratingly monotonous and really rather glib. Of course, to each his own ...

 

[Seven of Five]

I have a soft spot for The Assignment. I'm not sure why, maybe it's because it's one I can distinctly remember watching when I was 12. I've always liked Keiko, so this episode works well enough for me. Whilst not the strongest 'Torture O'Brien' episode, it does enough to pull on the heart strings a bit. It's seeing O'Brien suffer that gives the episode any resonance at all, but I agree the rest of the episode is nothing special.

Sacred Ground is one I've only ever seen once, so my memory is very hazy. I remember disliking the episode as I found it boring, so I skipped it during my VOY rewatch, which maybe was unfair. So I can't really comment on it fairly, except to say that it would lose to B5 at least.

Z'ha'dum is one of those defining B5 episodes that makes you smile very, very much at yourself that you're watching the show in the first place. Sheridan knows that whatever is masquerading as his wife isn't his beloved Anna, but will go to Z'ha'dum anyway to find out what the Shadows are up to, and despite Kosh's doom-laden warning of his death. And then on getting there, their reasonings for what they do seem to make a certain amount of sense. The Vorlons don't have a clean hand in all of this - they've been manipulating the smaller races for a very long time, even if it is to help fight the Shadows. Smackdown delivered to the planet, followed by 'Jump!' The ending is one of the finest cliffhangers I've ever seen, with G'Kar's narration the icing on the cake. I'm just glad I didn't have to wait months-

Wait a minute. One whole week? That's all there was between Z'ha'dum and The Hour Of The Wolf? I've said it before but PTEN really had a very bizarre idea of scheduling. Within B5 narrative, one season is considered a year. What the hell?

Anyway, sorry about the B5 lovefest. Next week's triplet is much more evenly matched I think.

And good luck with the move Sykonee. I hate moving, I get too stressed!

 

[Pemmer Harge]

In retrospect, however, the quality of B5 went over the cliff as well with Z'ha'dum. The show never came close to consistently matching the quality of the great moments of seasons two and three again.

I understand there were some behind the scenes turmoil, unfortunately the problems were really rather obvious to me from the beginning of season 4. I found the progress and resolutions of the major story arcs from here on incredibly and frustratingly monotonous and really rather glib. Of course, to each his own ...

Each to his own indeed. Overall I think I probably like Season 4 the best.

Anyway, Season 3 of B5 was quite something. Maybe a few more weak episodes than Season 2, but probably more great ones as well. The Messages from Earth-Point of No Return-Severed Dreams trilogy still stands out to me as possibly the greatest thing they ever did on this show.

No need to hurry back, Sykonee, because I think I'm going to make myself unpopular with my choice next time!

 

[Sykonee]

Move done. Not quite settled in yet but comfy enough for now.

Wait a minute. One whole week? That's all there was between Z'ha'dum and The Hour Of The Wolf? I've said it before but PTEN really had a very bizarre idea of scheduling. Within B5 narrative, one season is considered a year. What the hell?

The funny thing is it actually works within the show's timeline as well, as one week always passes between their season finales and season premiers. This time's no different, heh. Speaking of which...

Week 9: (Ending 11.10.96)
DS9 - Trials And Tribble-ations (Airdate 11.04.96)
VOY - Future's End (Airdate 11.06.96)
B5 - The Hour Of The Wolf (11.07.96)

Well, Trek sure had a lot of fun this week, didn't it? Time travel hijinx and implausible adventure, with plenty of knowing winks to the audience along the way. Of course, DS9 had the 'funner' episode, by virtue of having two Trek crews 'interact' with each other. Not that VOY was a slouch this week though. It may be a style-bite of STIV, but you can tell everyone involved was having a jolly good ol' in the process; plus, they even get to poke a bit of fun at some contemporary (for the time) sci-fi tropes with aliens contacting Earth for the first time (yep, this was the era of ID4, Contact... lots of others).

In contrast, B5's episode was bleak. Like... just bleak. And, um, not a whole lot seemed to happen either. It felt like one of those 'arc set-up' shows, where pieces are being moved into place for future episodes. All well and good -B5 certainly has proven capable of delivering a strong payoff once things are rolling in motion- but unfortunately can't hold up to the fun'n'games of the Treks this week.

Thus, of the Treks, DS9 wins. I find it more fun watching Sisko and co. stumble around the old Enterprise than watching Janeway and co. stumble around the streets of Los Angeles.

Weekly Winner
DS9

Next:
DS9 - Let He Who Is Without Sin
VOY - Future's End, Part II
B5 - Whatever Happened To Mr. Garibaldi?

 

[Pemmer Harge]

I have to say that The Hour of the Wolf is my favourite here. Various plot threads are introduced and I thought it was all done really well. It is a set-up episode like, say, DS9 Penumbra, but it's one of the best set-up episodes I've seen. It's without a doubt Babylon 5's best season opener (I know we haven't got to No Compromises yet, but...).

Trials and Tribble-ations. This is cleverly done and a great achievement production-wise, but for some reason it didn't quite do as much for me as I'd hoped. I can't really fault it, it's just not a personal favourite of mine. I do love the "you'll be sorry if you go back to the future and find I never existed" bit.

Future's End. This is pretty good, it's nothing very special but it's above average for this show. It's fun.

This week I'd say B5 > DS9 > VOY

 

[Sykonee]

Week 10: (Ending 11.17.96)
DS9 - Let He Who Is Without Sin... (11.11.96)
VOY - Future's End, Part II (11.13.96)
B5 - Whatever Happened To Mr. Garabaldi? (11.14.96)

It's weeks like these that I wish I hadn't used up my Get Out Of Watching One Crappy Episode Free Card with Meridian. DS9 was utterly abysmal here. Just awful, awful, awful, awful. Give me a silly action-packed VOY episode with more plot holes than a planet made of Swiss cheese over that dreck any day.

BTW, was Silverman supposed to represent a typical 'geek girl' or something? Considering the path her career took since Future's End aired (trash-mouth comedy), I have a bit of a hard time buying it. I never saw this first-run, so I have to wonder if anyone did.

I actually do recall catching this week's B5 episode first run, however. Well, not exactly. It's the title I recall seeing on TV (for some reason) -it's a bit of an odd title, ain'it? It's an odd episode too, where it seems like a lot of stuff happens, yet there doesn't seem to be a lot of action either. Plenty of excellent monologues though. And, as always, get Londo and G'Kar alone in a room together, and you're guaranteed a memorable scene. (get your head out of the gutter, you sillies!)

I wouldn't call B5 a great episode this week, as it still seems to be mostly concerned about plot set-up at this point, but boy does it ever keep you intrigued about what's going to happen next. VOY, though fun, has one of those frustrating Reset Buttons for its resolution, rendering it kind of pointless in the process (well, aside from the gizmo Doc got; how did alt-Braxton miss that?). DS9... forget it.

Weekly Winner
B5

Next:
DS9 - Things Past
VOY - Warlord
B5 - The Summoning

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Let He Who is Without Sin? Three words: Worst. Episode. Ever. I can't stand this episode and I found it embarrassing to watch. Seriously, how did this get made? There are other bad DS9 episodes, with Profit and Lace getting mentioned a lot, however, that one was only painful to watch for the last 15 minutes or so, whereas this one is painful for pretty much the whole episode. Awful.

Future's End Part II - same as for part I, it's entertaining but not exactly classic. It's a hell of a lot better than DS9's episode this week though.

Whatever Happened to Mr Garibaldi? on the other hand is classic. Last week was good, but this is excellent. It's an episode that actually starts quite slowly, but ends up being one of the most powerful instalments of the entire show, in my opinion. I loved Sheridan's experiences on Z'ha'dum and Delenn getting it together and gathering the White Stars, but the real highlight is what happens between Londo and G'Kar. The scene where Londo visits G'Kar in his cell on Centauri Prime was extraordinary - in my opinion one of the best B5 has ever done.

 

[Sykonee]

Let He Who is Without Sin? Three words: Worst. Episode. Ever. I can't stand this episode and I found it embarrassing to watch. Seriously, how did this get made? There are other bad DS9 episodes, with Profit and Lace getting mentioned a lot, however, that one was only painful to watch for the last 15 minutes or so, whereas this one is painful for pretty much the whole episode. Awful.

Future's End Part II - same as for part I, it's entertaining but not exactly classic. It's a hell of a lot better than DS9's episode this week though.

Whatever Happened to Mr Garibaldi? on the other hand is classic. Last week was good, but this is excellent. It's an episode that actually starts quite slowly, but ends up being one of the most powerful instalments of the entire show, in my opinion. I loved Sheridan's experiences on Z'ha'dum and Delenn getting it together and gathering the White Stars, but the real highlight is what happens between Londo and G'Kar. The scene where Londo visits G'Kar in his cell on Centauri Prime was extraordinary - in my opinion one of the best B5 has ever done.

The thing that really strikes me about this episode is that the character who's name is featured so prominently in the title barely has much to do with the plot, beyond giving G'Kar his reason to leave the station (not to mention such a classic line, given his, er, predicament when he says it).

 

[Sykonee]

Week 11: (Ending 11.24.96)
DS9 - Things Past (Airdate 11.18.96)
VOY - Warlord (Airdate 11.20.96)
B5 - The Summoning (Airdate 11.21.96)

BEST. VOYAGER. EPISODE. EVER!!

Well, okay, probably not, but man did I ever enjoy this campfest. Kes has been my favorite character for the most part, and it's been too long since she's had an episode to herself (one year, actually, with the tepid Cold Fire). Warlord has a pretty generic plot but Lien gives it such vitality, I can't help but enjoy every moment she's on screen. It's like we get to have Mirror Kes for an entire episode. Awesome!! In a way, I like it more than any of the other shows this week. Don't get me wrong, they were 'technically' better than VOY, but no where near as fun.

And it's not like the plot of DS9 wasn't any more ludicrous than VOY. Yeah, the actually story of Things Past was quite good, but I don't really buy the telepathic memory link crutch they used to tell it. It frankly wasn't necessary to do that in order to show Odo's shady past, and I'm not sure how they could interact the way they did with Odo's memories in the first place. It doesn't ruin the crux of the story, mind, but it definitely strikes me as being highly implausible, even within the realms of Trek sci-fi.

B5... you're slipping a bit again. This is the third episode in a row now where plot maneuvering takes place, and this time with very few character moments to make up for it. Yes, yes, the Londo & G'Kar Arc remains as compelling as ever, but even this feels more like a lull in where their story is going. Beyond that, it still feels like we're in 'set-up' mode, now with everyone back in place, ready to make their next move against the Shadows and even Vorlons. Hey, I'm just as intrigued about where this is all going as the next guy, but we need to have some kind of payoff soon, especially with the show going into winter break after next week.

I'll admit my Guilty Pleasure Meter went through the roof with VOY this week, and I'd have no qualms about giving it the nod based on pure cheesy subjectiveness. Objectively, however, DS9 had the better overall episode. It's yet another excellent Character Episode, which always seems to be DS9's ace-in-the-hole, and with B5 doing an Arc-Plot Episode this week, the show with Odo angst takes it.

Weekly Winner
DS9

Next:
DS9 - The Ascent
VOY - The Q And The Grey
B5 - Falling Toward Apotheosis

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Can't agree with you about how B5 is going at this point. Personally I think this series of episodes is a pretty good example of how to do a story arc really well and build up towards a climax without the episodes feeling like they're just setting things up. I think The Summoning is well-timed - we've been through the uncertainty and the emotional turmoil and now we have a turning point - a sort of mini-conclusion that paves the way for the next three episodes. In addition, as an individual episode I found it well-paced and exciting.

Things Past is also a really good episode, even if it is basically Necessary Evil II. If any episode deserved a sequel it was that one, after all. I do dislike the technobabble aspect, but the last scene with its obvious echo of the aforementioned episode is really great.

Warlord basically is all about Jennifer Lien's performance. It's only an average plot, but boy was she entertaining. Funny thing is, when the possessed Kes dumps Neelix, it feels right for her character, and notably they didn't get back together, did they?

I feel guilty giving B5 six wins in a row, but there it is.

 

[DevilEyes]

I'm a sucker for Terok Nor/Trek Noir episodes, so naturally Things Past is one of my favorites from season 5 (overall the strongest DS9 season, IMO).

I'm angry at VOY for depriving me of a Kes-dumps-Neelix moment that isn't marred by her being possessed. We must assume that there was a second dumping by not-possessed-anymore Kes that happened off-screen.