DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

[flemm]

The thing I disliked about Season 2, was that the first half of the season was almost entirely forgettable, and almost the worst run DS9 ever had. The quality of the later half of the season makes up for it, but I still find more boring episodes than good episodes in it.

Early season 2 contains DS9's first (and quite successful) mini-arc, The Homecoming/The Circle/The Siege, really a 5-part arc if we include Duet and In the Hands of the Prophets from the end of season 1. Also Cardassians and Necessary Evil, very good and excellent respectively. So I definitely disagree about the beginning of the season.

There is a 5-episode stretch of mediocrity in the middle of season 2, however: Second Sight, Sanctuary, Rivals, The Alternate and Armageddon Game, but even these episodes have some important character stuff (Odo's "father" in The Alternate, O'Brien and Bashir bonding in Armageddon Game, etc.)

Then of course there is a stretch of excellent episodes at the end. Overall I love the feel of this season and the relationships that are built within the main cast (often in scenes that aren't a focal point of the central plot). It's not as flashy or as epic as DS9 eventually becomes, but it establishes a lot of the themes, relationships and plotlines that will be played out later on.

 

[Eyes]

^Yes, obviously there were some good episodes, and I love all the ones you mention as being good, as well as Melora, and most of the others I can tolerate, there aren't really any I hate like Meridian, but out of all DS9's seasons, the first half of season 2 had the most bad/average episodes, and so, I don't really care for it as much as other seasons.

 

[Sykonee]

Week 12: (Ending 11.23.97)
DS9 - Resurrection (Airdate 11.17.97)
VOY - Random Thoughts (Airdate 11.19.97)

Though I have no evidence to back it up, it feels like DS9 had this story on the shelf since perhaps even S4, but just never got around to making an episode of it. Unfortunately, the longer we go from Vadek Bareil's death, the less we're gonna care if he comes back. Let's face it: the relationship between him and Kira never developed in any significant way, perhaps peaking around S2's Collaborator before it was more-or-less dropped in favor of other plot threads. Why, at this late stage, with all that has happened since the Vadek's death, will we care if he returns? Was anyone pining for a return of Anglim? Well, maybe a bunch of ladies were...

Even if you were intrigued by the premise, Resurrection was still a plodding episode. Just a whole bunch of dialog and prone bodies. Man, at least VOY had people moving, getting beat up, stabbed, burned ...yikes!

Frankly, beyond the somewhat broad Prohibition Allegory, Random Thoughts wasn't much to get fussed over either. Hey, I always like a good Tuvok Investigation (Ex Post Facto was not a good Tuvok Investigation), and this one is decent enough. Still, about the only thing that leaps out of my mind regarding this episode are the clips from Event Horizon, a movie that scared the absolute piss out of me when I watched ...the first half of it anyway; second half is just generic Hellraiser slasher shite.

Blah, VOY can have this week. DS9 was more of a let-down with such a stand-alone episode, flatly dropping all that expertly handled story-arc the season's given us. Heck, at least VOY fully admits to its episodic formula in its epilogue!

Weekly Winner
VOY

Next:
DS9 - Statistical Probability
VOY - Concerning Flight
B5 - The Deconstruction Of Falling Stars

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Oops, didn't realise you hadn't reviewed Resurrection yet!

For those that are interested to see where I place the other seasons:

5
3/6
4/7
2
1

Interesting. Currently for me it shapes up something like this:

Season 5: Sweeping story arc, everything feels cohesive, several standout episodes, just the best overall.

Season 2: Lots of universe building, and the most important season as far as characters and relationships among the main cast are concerned.

Season 7: Lots of odd and sometimes regrettable creative choices, but also lots of the best material Trek has ever produced.

Season 4: Very consistent and very good, but nothing really stands out to me as especially awesome either.

Season 6: As discussed above, a few truly excellent moments, but it strikes me as rather mediocre otherwise.

Season 3: Something of a transition to the epic scale of the later seasons, a great two-parter and of course the discovery of the Founders, but for whatever reason most of the other episodes didn't make much of an impression on me.

Season 1: Too much TNG standing still, though there's a lot of entertaining stuff and a lot of groundwork laid for the future. Respectable, but everything that comes afterward is better.

Ooh, I want to play this game too!

Season 5: The most consistent season, with a darker tone than before and the best mix of the show's different facets - Bajorans, Cardassians, Dominion, Klingons, Gamma Quadrant exploration.

Season 3: The point where DS9 became consistent and they finally got all the characters sorted out. Nice mix of episodes including three great two-parters and my favourite episode, Second Skin.

Season 7: A lot of little problems starting to emerge in both plot and characters, but also more great episodes than pretty much any other year. Final Chapter was a valiant effort as well.

Season 6: Excellent first six episodes and a number of other gems later in the season. Too much of the non-war stuff felt inconsequential, though.

Season 4: Very good beginning and end, but the middle of the season was weak. A lot of the Klingon stuff didn't work for me.

Season 2: Big step-up from the first year with DS9 finding its own identity. Some of the very best episodes, but far too inconsistent and some ambitious episodes fell a bit flat.

Season 1: Three excellent episodes and a few others that are quite good as well, but it did feel too much like TNG-lite. Many of the episodes hardly stick in my mind at all.

 

[flemm]

Ooh, I want to play this game too!

By all means

 

[TheGodBen]

Can I play too?

Season 1: Some great episodes, but we all know what's wrong with this season. It's not bad, but it lacked the ambition DS9 had in all the later seasons.

Season 2: It starts out really well, it ends really well, the middle section meanders between being poor and average. It starts to show ambition and the cast started to work really well together.

Season 3: After a season of introduction and threats, very little is actually done with the Dominion until The Die is Cast, which is very late in the season. I have difficulty classifying the tone of this season, it's not about the Dominion, it's not about the Bajorans, it's not about the Cardassians, it's not about the Maquis... what is it? It's a good season and an important one, but it's doesn't come together at the end.

Season 4: The point at which the show became really consistent, there's only one episode I consider to be bad, The Muse. The season is a bit of an aberration, the Klingon conflict conflict doesn't go anywhere, but it does give this season an identity that season 3 didn't have.

Season 5: Possibly the show's high-point, the various plot-line come together in shocking yet logical ways, yet the show remains firmly rooted in the characters. Very good stuff.

Season 6: After the high of the occupation arc it struggles to maintain a consistent level of quality. It contains some of the best episodes of the series, but overall it's not sure what to do with itself.

Season 7: Starts out well, has some fluff in the middle, finishes off well with the Final Chapter. Uneven, but the highs were really high. I have a fondness for this season because it is the one I have watched the least, I saw it when it first aired and twice on DVD, whereas with the previous 6 seasons I saw most of the episodes countless times as repeats. Also, I like Ezri, I wish she had been part of the show from the beginning.

Zombie Season 8: A really pointless addition, making Zombie Cal Hudson the new lead was a terrible choice, that guy was completely lifeless. The only good episode was the one where Zombie Bareil, Zombie Damar, Zombie Ziyal and Zombie Eddington formed a barbershop quartet. A zombie barbershop quartet.

 

[Sykonee]

Can I play too?
Zombie Season 8: A really pointless addition, making Zombie Cal Hudson the new lead was a terrible choice, that guy was completely lifeless. The only good episode was the one where Zombie Bareil, Zombie Damar, Zombie Ziyal and Zombie Eddington formed a barbershop quartet. A zombie barbershop quartet.

I dunno. The Zombie Mirror Universe Episode managed to fix a lot of the problems the other Mirror Universe episodes created. Plus, the birth of Zombie Jake from Zombie Mirror Universe Sisko and Zombie Mirror Universe Jennifer has to be one of the most brilliant cliff-hangers ever done. Shame we never got that follow-up season, not even a novel relaunch.

 

[Bones2]

I bet Avery Brooks regretted leaving before Zombie Season 8; his acting would have fitted right in.

 

[Kai Winn]

Week 10: (Ending 11.09.97)
DS9 - Sacrifice Of Angels (Airdate 11.03.97)
VOY - Year Of Hell (Airdate 11.05.97)

Weekly Winner
DS9

As is repeatedly stated in the episode, the fate of the Alpha Quadrant was literally at stake here.

sorry to comment so late on that, i hadn't noticed it before. so, soa won because the fate of the alpha quadrant hung in the balance? that's amazing reasoning, the bigger the stakes, the better the story? voyager, thank goodness, had to save earth (not the whole quadrant) only once, in future's end. looked it up; why didn't it win its run?
always thought of those big stake stories poorly, its a cheap way of devising a plot.

 

[TheGodBen]

Well, I said that because... hang on a sec, I didn't say that. Now I'm deeply confused. Who am I?

 

[flemm]

I bet Avery Brooks regretted leaving before Zomebie Season 8; his acting would have fitted right in.

So, do you like Avery Brooks' acting? I'm having a hard time interpreting all the mixed messages you are sending out on that subject

 

[happydave]

sorry to comment so late on that, i hadn't noticed it before. so, soa won because the fate of the alpha quadrant hung in the balance? that's amazing reasoning, the bigger the stakes, the better the story? voyager, thank goodness, had to save earth (not the whole quadrant) only once, in future's end. looked it up; why didn't it win its run?

If we use the 'bigger the stakes, the better the win' Future's End did go up against what's considered one of the best episodes of DS9. (Trials and Tribble-ations) So it makes sense it didn't win.


And saving Kirk is surely more important than 1990's Earth.

 

[Sykonee]

If we use the 'bigger the stakes, the better the win' Future's End did go up against what's considered one of the best episodes of DS9. (Trials and Tribble-ations) So it makes sense it didn't win.


And saving Kirk is surely more important than 1990's Earth.

No doubt. Had Kirk been killed, Earth - or at least all human life - would have been destroyed at least twice afterwards.

Thing about Future's End, however, is it never really felt like there was much at stake, because the storyline never took itself that seriously. It was intended as a fun romp through mid-90s California, not as a grim adventure-drama (not to mention the audience really isn't all that emotionally invested in the fate of a 29th Century Earth).

 

[TheGodBen]

I've just spent the last few weeks reading back through this thread up until the end of the Shadow War (which is roughly where I am in my B5 viewing) and I have come to this very important realisation:

I can be incredibly funny.

I know you're not supposed to laugh at your own jokes, but I just couldn't help myself, I was on fire back in December/January. Short and concise jokes that displayed real wit. I wish I could be that funny all the time, sadly I feel that I've let myself go on the humour scale lately, but I hope that I can one day return to that level of quality. And Sykonee, you made me laugh at one point too. You should be proud.

</narcissism>

For the most part I agree with your judgements. Where I differ with you mostly is that I'm not so interested in the Shadow War, so when some of B5's big event episodes went up against DS9's character episodes I found myself siding with DS9 while you sided with B5. For example, in the match-up between Shadow Dancing and Nor the Battle to the Strong I would have gone with DS9. I felt a little bored during the battle in Shadow Dancing, while Nor the Battle... was a superb character episode for Jake. That's not to say that I dislike B5 as a whole, I rated season 3 very favourably and season 4 is off to a strong start. And Severed Dreams is right up there with the best that DS9 had to offer.

So, I'm not overly displeased with your choices and I shall not kill you this day.

 

[Sykonee]

Week 13: (Ending 11.30.97)
DS9 - Statistical Probability (Airdate 11.24.97)
VOY - Concerning Flight (Airdate 11.26.97)
B5 - The Deconstruction Of Falling Stars (Airdate 11.30.97)

Weird week, this. Another one of those "Each Show Pulling On Its Strengths" competitions, with DS9 doing a Character Episode (hi, Echevarria!) while supplying some more Dominion War arc plots, VOY having a fun ol' adventure romp without any real lasting consequences, and B5 building up its own mythology.

Well, B5 lags this week. It's another 'experimental' piece, jumping across the ages to see how Sheridan and Delenn's legacy permeates history, plus giving us a glimpse of B5's future (Sol goes nova, what!?). As such, it'll be intriguing if you're really into this universe, but pretty much skippable in the long run. Frankly, Deconstruction... feels like an afterthought, that the producers realized they needed one extra episode when their planned finale wasn't going to be needed just yet with the renewal for a fifth season. So, we get this. *shrug*

Alright, so between the Treks, what have we? Leonardo da Vinci versus The Jack Pack, it would seem. I actually rather liked Rhys-Davies here. He was fun to watch, even if the actual plot was silly - but hey, at least VOY knew it was silly and just had fun with the premise. How can you take the episode seriously when the Bad Guys were as stupid as they were?

On the other hand, Bashir gets quite the humbling lesson served up to him, which is always compelling drama. Perhaps not quite as riveting as the last time (The Quickening), but it's still well handled. It's a telling moral that, no matter how well we may be able to think we can predict outcomes, the pure unpredictability of human nature will always create variable odds - and for that, despite odds being stacked against you, you still hold out on that hope we can overcome them, so long as we give it our best shot. Excellent message there, my friends. (Erm, even if it has unfortunately been used to inspire some of the more fanatical aspects of society )

Weekly Winner
DS9

Next:
DS9 - The Magnificent Ferengi
VOY - Mortal Coil

 

[DevilEyes]

Frankly, beyond the somewhat broad Prohibition Allegory, Random Thoughts wasn't much to get fussed over either. Hey, I always like a good Tuvok Investigation (Ex Post Facto was not a good Tuvok Investigation), and this one is decent enough. Still, about the only thing that leaps out of my mind regarding this episode are the clips from Event Horizon, a movie that scared the absolute piss out of me when I watched ...the first half of it anyway; second half is just generic Hellraiser slasher shite.

Whaaaat? Hellraiser was neither shite, nor a slasher! Well, not until the last 15 minutes or so, which were always very disappointing to me, with it suddenly turning into a movie about Kirsty running through the corridors from the Cenobites (the actress was so bad, and the character bland - the movie went downhill the moment she became the lead instead of Julia/Clare Higgins ). Still, Hellraiser is a horror classic - the original, Barker's Hellraiser, that is; the second one still had a lot of interesting stuff in it; but the rest of them were mostly shit, one worse than the other.

 

[Sykonee]

Whaaaat? Hellraiser was neither shite, nor a slasher! Well, not until the last 15 minutes or so, which were always very disappointing to me, with it suddenly turning into a movie about Kirsty running through the corridors from the Cenobites (the actress was so bad, and the character bland - the movie went downhill the moment she became the lead instead of Julia/Clare Higgins ). Still, Hellraiser is a horror classic - the original, Barker's Hellraiser, that is; the second one still had a lot of interesting stuff in it; but the rest of them were mostly shit, one worse than the other.

Ah, heh. I think you misread. I meant Event Horizon was reduced to a generic Hellraiser-like slasher flick. Basically all that disturbing imagery stuff, while Sam Neill picks off people one-by-one in shocking ways.

I was more scared of all the implied stuff from earlier in the movie. As with most horror, what you imagine is often far more disturbing than what is ever shown on screen.

 

[Kai Winn]

Whaaaat? Hellraiser was neither shite, nor a slasher! Well, not until the last 15 minutes or so, which were always very disappointing to me, with it suddenly turning into a movie about Kirsty running through the corridors from the Cenobites (the actress was so bad, and the character bland - the movie went downhill the moment she became the lead instead of Julia/Clare Higgins ).

wold you like to comment on terry farrell in hellraiser 3?

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

Week 13: (Ending 11.30.97)
DS9 - Statistical Probability (Airdate 11.24.97)
VOY - Concerning Flight (Airdate 11.26.97)
B5 - The Deconstruction Of Falling Stars (Airdate 11.30.97)

Statistical Probabilities is one of my favorite episodes of the whole season. Kind of like In the Cards, it's actually a semi-big arc episode without feeling like one. Weyoun and Damar's appearances as well as the heavy overtones of the Jack Pack's calculations give this episode a lot of gravitas. The fact that some of these war predictions come true later in the series doesn't hurt this either.

 

[Sykonee]

Week 14 (Ending 12.21.97)
DS9 - The Magnificent Ferengi (Airdate 12.17.97)
VOY - Mortal Coil (Airdate 12.17.97)

Actually, I'm getting conflicting dates again. Memory Alpha has TMF this week, while Jammer and my DVD has it two weeks after (and on different days no less). I'm just going with Alpha this time, since it at least gives us a proper Versus.

Well, the Ferengi have some hi-jinx this week. And Iggy Pop makes one of the most random cameos ever. Yeah, it's a fun episode, but it can't really compete with Mortal Coil.

Don't look at me that way. You should have seen it coming. The annual Torture Neelix episode has won every single year - except for the second season, since there wasn't really a Torture Neelix episode then (maybe the crappy Elogium, but that was a Torture Kes episode as well, not to mention Torture Audience). And similarly to the S4 Torture O'Brien episode Hard Time, Neelix is ready to commit suicide, though for different reasons. Here, it's a complete disillusionment of the point of existence. Damn...

It's often been said that Neelix is a compelling character once you dig under his 'tears of a clown' personality. Fortunately, we have the annual Torture Neelix episode to do so. Now back again to him torturing us with his regular disposition (to be fair, he has gotten better in S4).

(Note: I really like the last shot of this episode. Yeah, I'm a bit of a sentimentalist that way *shrug*)

Weekly Winner
VOY

Next:
B5 - In The Beginning