DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

[Eyes]

Yep, Voyager deserved this week.

YACI is fun, even though I'm not a Worf/Dax fan, but against Year of Hell, no chance. I liked the pre-wedding parties for their humour a lot more than I liked the ceremony and Klingon aspect of YACI.

Next week, in contrast to the clash of the Titans two weeks ago, we've got two of the weaker episodes of each show's entire season. Weird. I predict a win for Resurrection, as I remember being slightly interested in that plot, compared to the plot of Random Thoughts, one of Voyager's more boring episodes.

 

[Smiley]

I'm calling "Random Thoughts" in a landslide. It's got some good Torres scenes, a relatively fresh core concept, and Tuvok in an actual role. "Resurrection" is one I like to a degree, but it's one of the lesser episodes of DS9.

 

[TheGodBen]

This is one of the few occasions where Voyager can win and I wont strangle a kitten. YACI has some good comedic moments ("I'm going to kill Worf."), but Year of Hell was Year of Hell.

 

[Kai Winn]

Week 11: (Ending 11.16.97)
DS9 - You Are Cordially Invited (Airdate 11.10.97)
VOY - Year Of Hell, Part II (Airdate 11.12.97)

you are cordially invited happens to be my favourite out of a mediocre season of ds9, topped only by the magnificent ferengi which is coming up soon. nice interaction of dax and that klingon baroness, fun troughout. since i prefer voy, i would of course have given the win to yoh2 as well.
"superb occupation arc"? what i remember is odo's silly grin when corrupted by that female shapeshifter, and the fledgeling genius of rom saving the day once again.

 

[DevilEyes]

I'm calling "Random Thoughts" in a landslide. It's got some good Torres scenes, a relatively fresh core concept, and Tuvok in an actual role. "Resurrection" is one I like to a degree, but it's one of the lesser episodes of DS9.

Well, what do you know - I'd give VOY the win this (YOH vs wedding episode) and next week, too. It's not a great episode, but Resurrection is weak, predictable and rather pointless, though it's a bit of a guilty pleasure if you kinda liked the Kira/Bareil romance back in the day and thought Bareil was hot (and I did, both, though more so when I first watched the show than now).

 

[flemm]

Resurrection is on my short list of worst DS9 episodes. So gimmicky, so predictable. I generally look forward to Kira episodes, but this one has no bearing on the character due to the fact that her behavior is determined entirely by the needs of the gimmick. Since the writers were going to have Kira and Odo get involved later in the season, a more interesting approach would have been to have this episode deal with the rift created between these two character by the occupation arc, with the mirror Bareil's appearance as a spur toward examining how much Kira's emotional needs have changed since her relationship with the original Bareil. However, the actual product has no such implications.

DS9 can be mystifying at times. Layered, epic material like the occupation arc, then suddenly an episode like this that has no reason to exist.

That dynamic is pretty characteristic of season 6 as a whole: plenty of ambitious material like ITPM and FBTS, but a lot of fluff alongside it.

 

[Seven of Five]

I agree. Season six has some of the best episodes in the series, and also some of the worst. Season five had a couple of stinkers in it too but it was much more consistent, and is easily my favourite season.

 

[flemm]

I agree. Season six has some of the best episodes in the series, and also some of the worst. Season five had a couple of stinkers in it too but it was much more consistent, and is easily my favourite season.

I tend to agree that Season 5 is the best overall single season of DS9. Season 6 I would probably only be able to rank above seasons 1 and 3 overall, which is pretty incredible considering that it contains episodes like ITPM and the Occupation arc

In addition to just having too many fluff episodes, Season 6 also runs into a problem that I guess we can call the "separate worlds effect" where the cast stops feeling like a team and extended family (as it does in the early seasons), and more like a loosely associated group of people that just happen to all be living on the same space station. The writers seem to be going down a laundry list: Ferengi episode? check. Dax-Worf episode? check. Kira-Odo episode? check. Torture O'Brien episode? check. Something for Jake and Nog ? check, etc.

This can probably be understood as a side-effect of DS9's ever-expanding cast of characters. Mostly the rich supporting cast is a strength of the show, but something is lost with respect to the early seasons as far as cohesion of the main cast is concerned. This is one of the reasons I still rank season 2 as one of my favorite seasons (probably #2 behind season 5).

Season 5 is the sweet spot: we have the epic sweep of the later seasons, but the cohesion of the early seasons.

 

[TheGodBen]

Personally, I don't mind the "separate worlds effect", as you call it. I find it a little odd in all the Trek series that the main casts end up as best friends. I mean, Geordi spends most of his work day down in engineering, so why are his best friends the guys on the bridge rather than the engineering staff he spends most of his time with? The same with Dr Crusher, although she did manage a friendship with nurse Ogawa in the later seasons. Perhaps they don't want to get too close with the people under their command and so they hang out with people in other departments instead, which kinda makes sense, but it still feels odd to me.

Voyager had one of the worst cases of this because the show kept claiming that the crew was like a family, but it didn't feel that way to me because all we saw was the nine main cast members with a little Naomi and Icheb thrown in. By the final season of that show it's almost impossible for me to imagine B'Elanna spending time with the staff working in engineering, let alone being close enough to them to consider them a family. DS9 wasn't great in this regard either, but at least the "family" message wasn't there to feel out of place.

The only problem I have with this system is the segregation of the Ferengi episodes from the rest of the show, and the fact that the writers only used them for "comedy". It was like there was an entirely separate show taking place within DS9.

 

[flemm]

Personally, I don't mind the "separate worlds effect", as you call it. I find it a little odd in all the Trek series that the main casts end up as best friends.

I think it's just part of the basic Trek concept that the members of the command crew mainly interact with one another and form the family or adventuring group that we are following. So, I can't say that it bothers me on a show like TNG.

On the other hand, I don't mind that DS9 strayed from that by introducing more supporting characters with strong relationships to the main cast, and by introducing more conflict within the main cast. I don't think this necessarily implies, however, that the cohesiveness of the main cast has to be lost. Season 2 is probably the strongest season in this regard, not because everyone gets along and is best friends, but because everyone interacts in meaningful ways. They work together, they fight, they argue, they get to know one another. There's an organic quality to their interactions that other Trek casts don't have at all, but which DS9 loses in the later seasons to a large extent. Never entirely, but there is less of it.

To take an example, overall the basic trend of Kira becoming more trusting of Sisko as the Emissary and as her commanding officer is good, but there was no reason to abandon all meaningful disagreements between them. Another example would be the rivalry between Quark and Odo which produces so much great material in the earlier seasons but which largely disappears in the later seasons.

Voyager had one of the worst cases of this because the show kept claiming that the crew was like a family, but it didn't feel that way to me because all we saw was the nine main cast members with a little Naomi and Icheb thrown in. By the final season of that show it's almost impossible for me to imagine B'Elanna spending time with the staff working in engineering, let alone being close enough to them to consider them a family. DS9 wasn't great in this regard either, but at least the "family" message wasn't there to feel out of place.

Well, claiming the crew is a family while not showing it is definitely a mistake, but that's Voyager for you.

The only problem I have with this system is the segregation of the Ferengi episodes from the rest of the show, and the fact that the writers only used them for "comedy". It was like there was an entirely separate show taking place within DS9.

The Ferengi are the biggest culprit. It would have been better to devise a way for Quark to be more involved with the main cast and less isolated in his farcical Ferengi universe. Admittedly, this would have been difficult, due to the fact that Quark can't reasonably serve on a Starship or get involved in the war directly, while on the other hand it's hard to imagine the other characters caring about his business affairs.

It's possible that, if one were redoing DS9 from scratch, Quark would have worked better as a semi-regular like Garak, where he could show up when you needed him and occasionally have an episode focused on him, but fade into the background the rest of the time.

 

[TheGodBen]

To take an example, overall the basic trend of Kira becoming more trusting of Sisko as the Emissary and as her commanding officer is good, but there was no reason to abandon all meaningful disagreements between them. Another example would be the rivalry between Quark and Odo which produces so much great material in the earlier seasons but which largely disappears in the later seasons.

I understand where you're coming from, and a part of me agrees with you, but at the same time I feel that DS9 was right to shake up the character dynamics and not rely upon what they had done in the past. The Odo/Quark material is often a highlight of episodes in the early seasons, even episodes I consider poor such as If Wishes Were Horses have good Odo/Quark scenes. But to continually rely upon their rivalry would have gotten old, and after the events of The Ascent there really wasn't much point to it any more. In that regard I think their final scene together in WYLB was perfect; here's two people that want to be rivals even though on some level they've come to like one another. They just wont admit it.

I just feel that DS9 was right to explore new avenues and new character dynamics rather than continuing those that worked in the past. I mean, O'Brien's dislike of Bashir was amusing at the beginning of the show, but their guy love from later in the show was even more amusing.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

You are Cordially Invited: this one has some great individual scenes, but the plot is formulaic ("The wedding's off!" golly, do you think they'll sort things out at the last minute?). As an epilogue for the Occupation arc, this doesn't do it for me.

Resurrection: Oh dear. This one actually seemed like it might be OK in a quiet sort of way - a change from the usual over the top mirror universe stuff (which was good at first, but...). However, as soon as Mirror Kira showed up, all I could think was "I'm sick of you now!". The episode pretty much lost it from that point on - I'd say this is probably the worst episode in Season 6.

I kind of agree with Seven and flemm about Season 6. There are some really excellent episodes, but too many of the others feel lightweight. DS9 is still a great show, but I think it peaked with Season 5 and the Occupation arc.

 

[flemm]

As I recall, there was no guarantee of a season 7 going into season 6, which probably contributes to the latter portion of season 6 feeling rather unfocused: presumably the writers would have concluded the Dominion War at the end of season 6 had the decision not been made to go ahead and make a seventh season.

I think Sisko's situation at the end of season 6, going back to earth to think things over and find some answers, is analogous to the writers' situation: time to mull things over and figure out how to close things out. There's a lot of "writing about writing" in the later seasons of DS9, which I tend to enjoy, including of course the whole "finish the story" vision at the beginning of season 7.

Season 5 gets my vote for best overall, but a lot of my favorite material is in season 7, which I consider to be something of a rebound from the doldrums of late season 6 and probably my third favorite season overall (behind 5 and 2).

I just feel that DS9 was right to explore new avenues and new character dynamics rather than continuing those that worked in the past. I mean, O'Brien's dislike of Bashir was amusing at the beginning of the show, but their guy love from later in the show was even more amusing.

DS9 is rarely if ever stagnant, each season has its own identity, for good or for ill (mostly good). I agree that's one of the best things about the show. We're talking about nuances here, and of course the writers couldn't do everything (possibly they were trying to keep too many balls in the air as it is). The fact remains that quite of few episodes in late season 6 and early season 7 feel a bit too insular for my taste. Not that every show needed to be an arc show, or deal with the war directly, but I would have liked to see more ensemble episodes in the later seasons.

Incidentally, I think this may have crossed the writers minds as well and probably explains why there are two escapist holodeck episodes in season 7: they wanted to make sure there were at least a couple of episodes where the whole crew got together before launching into the final arc. I appreciate the sentiment but would have preferred something more substantive involving the whole main cast.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Season 5 gets my vote for best overall, but a lot of my favorite material is in season 7, which I consider to be something of a rebound from the duldrums of late season 6 and probably my third favorite season overall (behind 5 and 2).

That's pretty much how I feel about Season 7 as well, except I'd put it third behind 5 and 3. I think that in terms of overall "vibe" and balance of different types of stories, the middle three seasons were the best, but Season 7 has so many great episodes that, although I have some reservations about it, it's still one of my favourites.

 

[flemm]

That's pretty much how I feel about Season 7 as well, except I'd put it third behind 5 and 3. I think that in terms of overall "vibe" and balance of different types of stories, the middle three seasons were the best, but Season 7 has so many great episodes that, although I have some reservations about it, it's still one of my favourites.

Season 3 is probably due for a re-evaluation on my part. For whatever reason, it's the one I tend to rewatch the least spontaneously, outside of Improbable Cause/The Die is Cast, but it could be that I'm underestimating it a bit.

I did just rewatch The House of Quark, which I had only a hazy memory of, but it's really quite good, better than I remembered.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Season 3 is probably due for a re-evaluation on my part. For whatever reason, it's the one I tend to rewatch the least spontaneously, outside of Improbable Cause/The Die is Cast, but it could be that I'm underestimating it a bit.

I did just rewatch The House of Quark, which I had only a hazy memory of, but it's really quite good, better than I remembered.

I think I'm in the minority when it comes to my view of Season 3, since a lot of people seem to consider it one of DS9's worst.

 

[Eyes]

I would consider Season 5 my favourite, but I'm also in the minority that likes Season 3. Despite it having my nemesis of episodes in there, Meridian , I don't really see any other clunkers in there except for possibly the average Heart of Stone. Everything else was really good DS9 quality.

As for Season 6. I am proud to say I liked its fluff. OK, there's one exception in the form of that-Ferengi-cross-dressing-episode-that-shall-not-be-named, but everything else was nicely consistent. I sort of consider it to be on a par with Season 3.

Of course in both of those seasons are episodes I like, but have seen named among the worst episodes by other people, such as Fascination, Distant Voices, Valiant, Time's Orphan, The Reckoning, Civil Defense, among others.

For those that are interested to see where I place the other seasons:

5
3/6
4/7
2
1

 

[TheGodBen]

DS9 is rarely if ever stagnant, each season has its own identity, for good or for ill (mostly good). I agree that's one of the best things about the show. We're talking about nuances here, and of course the writers couldn't do everything (possibly they were trying to keep too many balls in the air as it is). The fact remains that quite of few episodes in late season 6 and early season 7 feel a bit too insular for my taste. Not that every show needed to be an arc show, or deal with the war directly, but I would have liked to see more ensemble episodes in the later seasons.

I guess it just doesn't bother me so much, now that I think of it a lot of my favourite TV shows either aren't ensemble shows or the ensemble element breaks apart by the end of the show. Even The West Wing, a very strong ensemble show in its first four years, eventually broke up into three camps. The Wire was a superb show, but when I think about it most of the cast didn't even interact with one another, Carcetti probably only interacted with 10% of the cast and he was a central figure for three seasons.

I think I'm in the minority when it comes to my view of Season 3, since a lot of people seem to consider it one of DS9's worst.

I don't like using the word "worst" to describe it because it was still a good season with a lot of great material, I'd prefer to say that season 3 is one of the "least best". I just feel that it's a small step down from season 2, and season 4 was a small step up from season 3, so it's like a little valley. Then again, reading Jimmy Bob's thread reminded me how many average episodes season 2 had in the middle, so it's entirely possible that I'm wrong in my opinion. I really need to get around to watching the series and finding the average scores for each season so that I can finally figure out what my true feelings are.

Yes, I'm really pathetic, but I've grown to accept that.

 

[flemm]

For those that are interested to see where I place the other seasons:

5
3/6
4/7
2
1

Interesting. Currently for me it shapes up something like this:

Season 5: Sweeping story arc, everything feels cohesive, several standout episodes, just the best overall.

Season 2: Lots of universe building, and the most important season as far as characters and relationships among the main cast are concerned.

Season 7: Lots of odd and sometimes regrettable creative choices, but also lots of the best material Trek has ever produced.

Season 4: Very consistent and very good, but nothing really stands out to me as especially awesome either.

Season 6: As discussed above, a few truly excellent moments, but it strikes me as rather mediocre otherwise.

Season 3: Something of a transition to the epic scale of the later seasons, a great two-parter and of course the discovery of the Founders, but for whatever reason most of the other episodes didn't make much of an impression on me.

Season 1: Too much TNG standing still, though there's a lot of entertaining stuff and a lot of groundwork laid for the future. Respectable, but everything that comes afterward is better.

 

[Eyes]

The thing I disliked about Season 2, was that the first half of the season was almost entirely forgettable, and almost the worst run DS9 ever had. The quality of the later half of the season makes up for it, but I still find more boring episodes than good episodes in it.

As for 4, I loved some episodes in it, but it gave over a few too many episodes to fairly dry Klingon stuff, and like you said, not enough outstanding episodes.

7 is kinda the weird one. It is completely epic in some places, with the Final Chapter and a few episodes like Treachery, Inter Arma, and Covenant in the first half, but a lot of its standalone episodes, many the final episodes focusing on a particular character, didn't feel epic enough to be in the same season as the final. In other words, I would have preferred in some ways if the whole season had been the Final Chapter.