DS9 should get Remastered

[Captain Fine]

How faithful the new effects are versus the old ones is really up to the producers. They could copy each shot exactly using CGI, and reproduce the mistakes as well, but I don't find that particularly satisfying, know that they could very well have gone and changed it and make it make sense in-universe. Defiant having the wrong registry is just plain lazy. It's because they had to use stock footage, so I forgave it, but to do it again? When they're redoing all the shots anyway? Seems criminal to me.

It's somewhat ironic that it's the "fans" who are most against updating the effects, whereas the general public either wouldn't notice or wouldn't care.

Since the effects have to be redone anyway, the marginal cost of some new shots (i.e. as opposed to stock footage) would be negligible versus the cost of the whole project.

 

[PorthosShadow]

I have to agree, DS9's special effects and over all look still hold up incredibly well after all this time. I would say if they could change something, its try to eliminate all the stock footage. I know some don't mind but when I see footage from Star Trek 6 in DS9, it kind of throws me a little and there are other examples. I'm just saying it would be nice to maybe re-create original footage to replace the stock shots.

 

[Oso Blanco]

So, are you saying that better special effects would ruin it for you? It takes all sorts I suppose...

Yes, it would ruin it for me. When I'm watching a movie or a tv show, I want to see the original effects. Each movie/show is a product of its time, and it should be appreciated as such. I also won't be watching Casablanca in colour or any other attempt at "improving" old movies.

While were at it, we could also improve some of those dull old paintings with new and bright neon colours, to make it more accessible for the young audience. Bring me the Mona Lisa, now!

 

[Butters]

So, are you saying that better special effects would ruin it for you? It takes all sorts I suppose...

Yes, it would ruin it for me. When I'm watching a movie or a tv show, I want to see the original effects. Each movie/show is a product of its time, and it should be appreciated as such. I also won't be watching Casablanca in colour or any other attempt at "improving" old movies.

While were at it, we could also improve some of those dull old paintings with new and bright neon colours, to make it more accessible for the young audience. Bring me the Mona Lisa, now!

Well when they bang on your door demanding you hand over your DS9 materials for alteration just pretend you're not in.

I won't be watching Casablanca in colour or black and white. Its not in my field of interest. You're welcome to your own opinion of course but you can't pretend its a rational one, not without attacking the opposing view as childish ("...accessible for the young audience...") Its not about age and accessibility, its about relevance and watchability. DS9 and the rest will be competing for airtime with with more aesthetically pleasing and culturally relevant products in a higher quality medium, if that audience is of diminishing size and not buying the advertised products, don't expect the series to have much longevity.

You consider DS9 a peice of art, to be appreciated in its original intended form. That analogy only goes so far. I prefer to see it as a product of its time in the same way as a microwave ready meal from 1991. In 1991, transfats, MSG and high sodium were acceptable, today's market however is more discerning.


As for the Mona Lisa, I prefer the nude one.

 

[jefferiestubes8]

remastering vs. changes

everytime someone demands to "remaster" something while they just mean new special effects.

Agreed. Remastering a film is not the same as "Lucasizing" it (ala ST Ep.IV-VI circa 1997).
Paramount/CBS home video really surprised me by doing the TOS-R.
As fans why it would be expected that all Trek TV shows get HD remastering is surprising. DS9 and VOY were mastered to state-of-the-art stndard definition digital videotape. Whenever that tape is played there is no loss of picture, resolution, color, sharpness from the day it was mastered.
TPTB will make a business decision on remastering TNG, DS9, VOY to HD. If it will not make a good R.O.I. it will not be done.
Luckily ENTERPRISE is in HD and will get a Blu-ray release in a few years.

 

[noknowes]

All the recent talk about TNG remastered really made me ache for DS9 to be remastered. I think TNG is shoe-in for remastering, it's only a matter of time. I think DS9 is less safe a bet. But there are definitely things that can benefit from it. E.g. I would change the Melbourne back to a Nebula-class starship, for one. I would put more different ships at Wolf 359 (e.g. Akira-class). I'd tone down the use of Mirandas and Excelsiors in the big battle scenes. I'd definitely give the second Defiant it's proper registry (NCC-75633) (unfortunately, they kept Constellation as NCC-1017 which is as glaring an error as imaginable so I'm not too optimistic. in my mind Constellation will always be 1710).

CBS/Paramount will not do it due to cost.

I suggest ds9 fans using home computers do it instead.3 years ago a fan inspired project was launched in which all Jack Vance Novels were reprinted/re-mastered into Hardback using the internet as a coordination tool.This produced the Vance Integral Edition.

You can look up the Vance Integral Edition in google for inspiration.

Jack Vance is very good science fiction fantasy writer with well over 200 novels.He won the Hugo award.Some of you may be aware of this.

In the ds9 case the same methods can be used and with modern distributed computing the same principles can be used.

Some of you have already produced high quality cgi in relation to Star Trek as witnessed in youtube and google video.

These efforts can be focused into remastering DS9.

A small team of not more than 15 people can be assembled.Any more and it will not work as infighting and ego conspires to defeat the object of the exercise.

An Agenda can be agreed and then implemented episode by episode.

Perhaps CBS/Paramount can be involved in it too.

 

[Captain Fine]

All the recent talk about TNG remastered really made me ache for DS9 to be remastered. I think TNG is shoe-in for remastering, it's only a matter of time. I think DS9 is less safe a bet. But there are definitely things that can benefit from it. E.g. I would change the Melbourne back to a Nebula-class starship, for one. I would put more different ships at Wolf 359 (e.g. Akira-class). I'd tone down the use of Mirandas and Excelsiors in the big battle scenes. I'd definitely give the second Defiant it's proper registry (NCC-75633) (unfortunately, they kept Constellation as NCC-1017 which is as glaring an error as imaginable so I'm not too optimistic. in my mind Constellation will always be 1710).

CBS/Paramount will not do it due to cost.

I suggest ds9 fans using home computers do it instead.3 years ago a fan inspired project was launched in which all Jack Vance Novels were reprinted/re-mastered into Hardback using the internet as a coordination tool.This produced the Vance Integral Edition.

You can look up the Vance Integral Edition in google for inspiration.

Jack Vance is very good science fiction fantasy writer with well over 200 novels.He won the Hugo award.Some of you may be aware of this.

In the ds9 case the same methods can be used and with modern distributed computing the same principles can be used.

Some of you have already produced high quality cgi in relation to Star Trek as witnessed in youtube and google video.

These efforts can be focused into remastering DS9.

A small team of not more than 15 people can be assembled.Any more and it will not work as infighting and ego conspires to defeat the object of the exercise.

An Agenda can be agreed and then implemented episode by episode.

Perhaps CBS/Paramount can be involved in it too.

I wouldn't be against this, provided I had final say on the project

 

[DiSiLLUSiON]

I don't understand how changing the effects would improve the show story-wise. I for one watch DS9 because of the stories. Effects aren't that important to tell a story.

It's not a book, it's a TV-show. In a TV-show, effects add much to the impact of a story.

However, I don't think it should be remastered. Re-imagined, perhaps. Not that I dislike the actors, but they've become old by now. Just as the decors.

 

[Chindogu]

CBS/Paramount will not do it due to cost.

I suggest ds9 fans using home computers do it instead.3 years ago a fan inspired project was launched in which all Jack Vance Novels were reprinted/re-mastered into Hardback using the internet as a coordination tool.This produced the Vance Integral Edition.

You can look up the Vance Integral Edition in google for inspiration.

Jack Vance is very good science fiction fantasy writer with well over 200 novels.He won the Hugo award.Some of you may be aware of this.

In the ds9 case the same methods can be used and with modern distributed computing the same principles can be used.

Some of you have already produced high quality cgi in relation to Star Trek as witnessed in youtube and google video.

These efforts can be focused into remastering DS9.

A small team of not more than 15 people can be assembled.Any more and it will not work as infighting and ego conspires to defeat the object of the exercise.

An Agenda can be agreed and then implemented episode by episode.

Perhaps CBS/Paramount can be involved in it too.

Just one small problem, it's not just the "special effects" that need to be re-done, it's practically everything. The live action segments may have been shot on film, but it was transferred to standard definition video tape for editing. This means that each episode needs to be re-edited from the original film as if it had just been done for the first time. And who knows what state the audio is in. I'd bet it's not really ready for immediate HD transfer either.

Just imagine how much it would cost to completely re-do all of the post production for 21 seasons (7x TNG,DS9,VOY) of tv. Crazy money and time. At best we'll get an up convertion and not a true HD transfer. But stranger things have happened.

Also, maybe we can get a sticky explaining exactly what it means and what would be intailed for remastering the Next Gen era shows. There always seems to be a lot of confusion whenever any of these threads are started.

 

[jefferiestubes8]

DS9 & TNG TV series remastering

to completely re-do all of the post production for 21 seasons (7x TNG,DS9,VOY) of tv. Crazy money and time. At best we'll get an up convertion and not a true HD transfer.

I think Paramount/CBS Home video may test the waters with a compilation of 4-6 episodes.
Originally I thought we may get a fan collective of 12-14 episodes on Blu-ray with full remastering from original camera negative and all CGI visual effects.
Why should they spend the money on that when they can do 4-6 episodes of TNG [the most popular of the 3 Trek series edited and mastered on standard definition video] on Blu-ray first to see if Paramount/CBS Home video 'gets a nibble on their fishing pole'.
I do not think DS9 will get the same test. If TNG is wildly successful then they may dip their toe in the Blu-ray water with DS9 and Voyager's best episodes.

 

[Disillusioned]

I wouldn't mind seeing the FX updated, especially if they aren't afraid to take some time to ensure good quality. Filming models are cool because of the detail, and the old VFX did the trick back when the show first aired, but there was only so much they could do with it. Later in the show they used CG, but the quality of it wasn't all that great, though the epic battle scenes would have been impossible using models. As an aside, if they ever redo those scenes, I really hope they put the shields in there like they're supposed to be. It always bothered me to hear the dialog reference shields when the VFX didn't show any, or how the Miranda class ships were taken out so easily.

Anyway, I figure if they could do it for TOS, the other shows could be done, too.

 

[Harvey]

If you don't understand why, check out the Babylon 5 DVDs. The effects there were rendered for 480p displays, while the non-effects shots look fine as they were filmed in a forward-looking format where they can easily be upconverted to HD. The result is everytime an effects shot is used (which is A LOT in B5), the video quality is highly pixelated. And that's just on standard resolution DVD; a HD release would look much worse.

I should point out that the visual effects on the Babylon 5 DVDs look so poor in SD because they have been blown up from a 4:3 source to fit a 16:9 frame. It is true that the effects without visual effects were shot with HD in mind, for they were filmed in Super 35mm and protected for a 16:9 frame.

This issue does not apply to any of the Star Trek series however, for every one except for Enterprise was shot on 35mm (like Babylon 5), but not protected for a 16:9 frame. The visual effects were still only mastered at 480p.

Model shots were photographed on 35mm film that could be recomposited for HD, but any CGI was only created at 480p and would have to be recreated. This is another issue where Babylon 5 runs afowl, but I suspect Trek won't (as badly, at least). Warner Bros. lost the original CGI models and shots used on Babylon 5. As far as I know, most of the CGI models used on Star Trek have been saved. These models may have to be upgraded to pass inspection in 1080p, but the extra step of re-creating them from scratch will not be required.

I am curious about those tests Paramount was running on upgrading Star Trek: The Next Generation's effects, though. Anyone have a link on that?

 

[SoM]

Why should they spend the money on that when they can do 4-6 episodes of TNG [the most popular of the 3 Trek series edited and mastered on standard definition video] on Blu-ray first to see if Paramount/CBS Home video 'gets a nibble on their fishing pole'.

IF they ever tried doing it "properly" (i.e., rescanning the film negs and doing the post-production over again), I suspect that they would test the water by releasing The Best of Both Worlds as a "movie". Given that it's only two eps, that it's one of the most popular stories of TNG, that it's a direct "prequel" to ST: First Contact, and that it's got a fair number of FX-shots to show off with, it's probably as close to optimal conditions for a test as they'd get.

As far as I know, most of the CGI models used on Star Trek have been saved. These models may have to be upgraded to pass inspection in 1080p, but the extra step of re-creating them from scratch will not be required.

Did they keep them as a whole, or is it just that some people who worked on them saved copies?

Plus, given software upgrades and file imports... stuff breaks. Compare the Steamrunner in the top pic here (an old rendering, "how it should be") to the lower pics where some stuff has gone noticeably wrong in the new renderings for the blog post: http://drexfiles.wordpress.com/2009/06/11/alex-jaeger-week-steamrunner-class/

I am curious about those tests Paramount was running on upgrading Star Trek: The Next Generation's effects, though. Anyone have a link on that?

I don't have time to look it up right now, but it's in TrekMovie's archives of late 2007, and basically says nothing more than "they're doing a test". It didn't say what they did, but there were certainly suspicions they were trying an upscale to see if they could get away with it.

 

[ManaByte]

Why should they spend the money on that when they can do 4-6 episodes of TNG [the most popular of the 3 Trek series edited and mastered on standard definition video] on Blu-ray first to see if Paramount/CBS Home video 'gets a nibble on their fishing pole'.

IF they ever tried doing it "properly" (i.e., rescanning the film negs and doing the post-production over again), I suspect that they would test the water by releasing The Best of Both Worlds as a "movie". Given that it's only two eps, that it's one of the most popular stories of TNG, that it's a direct "prequel" to ST: First Contact, and that it's got a fair number of FX-shots to show off with, it's probably as close to optimal conditions for a test as they'd get.

As far as I know, most of the CGI models used on Star Trek have been saved. These models may have to be upgraded to pass inspection in 1080p, but the extra step of re-creating them from scratch will not be required.

Did they keep them as a whole, or is it just that some people who worked on them saved copies?

Plus, given software upgrades and file imports... stuff breaks. Compare the Steamrunner in the top pic here (an old rendering, "how it should be") to the lower pics where some stuff has gone noticeably wrong in the new renderings for the blog post: http://drexfiles.wordpress.com/2009/06/11/alex-jaeger-week-steamrunner-class/

I am curious about those tests Paramount was running on upgrading Star Trek: The Next Generation's effects, though. Anyone have a link on that?

I don't have time to look it up right now, but it's in TrekMovie's archives of late 2007, and basically says nothing more than "they're doing a test". It didn't say what they did, but there were certainly suspicions they were trying an upscale to see if they could get away with it.

It wasn't really an effects test. The team that did TOS-R grabbed an episode of TNG and remastered it in HD (without re-doing the effects) and showed it to the brass at Paramount to try to sell them on the project. The rumor is that it's already underway.

 

[noknowes]

CBS/Paramount will not do it due to cost.

I suggest ds9 fans using home computers do it instead.3 years ago a fan inspired project was launched in which all Jack Vance Novels were reprinted/re-mastered into Hardback using the internet as a coordination tool.This produced the Vance Integral Edition.

You can look up the Vance Integral Edition in google for inspiration.

Jack Vance is very good science fiction fantasy writer with well over 200 novels.He won the Hugo award.Some of you may be aware of this.

In the ds9 case the same methods can be used and with modern distributed computing the same principles can be used.

Some of you have already produced high quality cgi in relation to Star Trek as witnessed in youtube and google video.

These efforts can be focused into remastering DS9.

A small team of not more than 15 people can be assembled.Any more and it will not work as infighting and ego conspires to defeat the object of the exercise.

An Agenda can be agreed and then implemented episode by episode.

Perhaps CBS/Paramount can be involved in it too.

Just one small problem, it's not just the "special effects" that need to be re-done, it's practically everything. The live action segments may have been shot on film, but it was transferred to standard definition video tape for editing. This means that each episode needs to be re-edited from the original film as if it had just been done for the first time. And who knows what state the audio is in. I'd bet it's not really ready for immediate HD transfer either.

Just imagine how much it would cost to completely re-do all of the post production for 21 seasons (7x TNG,DS9,VOY) of tv. Crazy money and time. At best we'll get an up convertion and not a true HD transfer. But stranger things have happened.

Also, maybe we can get a sticky explaining exactly what it means and what would be intailed for remastering the Next Gen era shows. There always seems to be a lot of confusion whenever any of these threads are started.

But people spend vast amounts of time here writing when they could be working mastering a few seconds worth of footage due to distributed working.

 

[jefferiestubes8]

Trek TV remastered

grabbed an episode of TNG and remastered it in HD (without re-doing the effects) and showed it to the brass at Paramount to try to sell them on the project. The rumor is that it's already underway.

Do you have a url link or magazine title and issue# or month/year to your rumor source?

 

[SoM]

But people spend vast amounts of time here writing when they could be working mastering a few seconds worth of footage due to distributed working.

How? CBS would hardly be likely to send out film rushes even in the bizarre circumstance that everyone had telecines attached to their computer. And beyond that, the grading would have to be done by professionals watching the whole process and making manual adjustments as they go.

It's not a matter of raw number-crunching. It's a matter of hardware, and of manual processes.

 

[Captain Fine]

I like the idea of remastering BOBW as a "movie". You could do the same for "Emissary".

 

[ManaByte]

Re: Trek TV remastered

grabbed an episode of TNG and remastered it in HD (without re-doing the effects) and showed it to the brass at Paramount to try to sell them on the project. The rumor is that it's already underway.

Do you have a url link or magazine title and issue# or month/year to your rumor source?

In regards to the tests, this is from 2007:
http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/news/Star-Trek/7762

 

[noknowes]

But people spend vast amounts of time here writing when they could be working mastering a few seconds worth of footage due to distributed working.

How? CBS would hardly be likely to send out film rushes even in the bizarre circumstance that everyone had telecines attached to their computer. And beyond that, the grading would have to be done by professionals watching the whole process and making manual adjustments as they go.

It's not a matter of raw number-crunching. It's a matter of hardware, and of manual processes.

INTERPOLATION SOFTWARE would negate the need for film rushes.

Using this would allow high definition and sharpness.

it takes 300 hours per 1 hour of remaster for a A 3 GHZ DUE CORE home pc to remaster in HD.