DS9 on blu ray?

[Chareth]

I agree that a remaster is unlikely, but it’s still unclear what the licensing costs are for a show in SD vs HD and why even some more obscure shows are being rebuilt in HD (like Seaquest DSV, albeit with upscaled effects). Why else would studios be doing so if not for future streaming and syndication revenues? If even Seaquest has a shot at a longer afterlife when in HD, converting DS9 and VOY to HD is presumably worthwhile at face value.

One key mystery is whether licensing DS9 and VOY is cheaper than TNG, and therefore CBS sees less revenue from them. And even if so, does an HD version cost more to license or does the studio bear that cost so the show can continue to be sold into the future?

I don’t think a future remaster can be ruled out, especially given Netflix’s enthusiasm for Star Trek, which is undoubtedly based on thorough data proving its ongoing appeal. Plus, as more companies learn how to rebuild in HD, costs will come down. Perhaps CBS is waiting for this. And if Trek’s popularity grows with Discovery, HD versions of all the old shows may be increasingly desirable.

I’m still perplexed though that TNG-R was seemingly budgeted purely as a Blu-ray product so that a lack of sufficient profit made the whole endeavour a disappointment. Wouldn’t (or shouldn’t) asset curation have been a key motivation, and therefore its ultimate returns not assumed so soon? That, not Blu-ray, has to be the motivation for shows like Seaquest and even The X-Files.

Alternatively, CBS know or believe that DS9 and VOY continue to draw a smaller audience and expect that providers will put up with two shows in SD when the rest in HD just so they can have more or all Star Trek on their service.

 

[Relayer1]

It's true that the BBC has a reputation for releasing SD material on Blu Ray. Chalk up the modern Doctor Who as another example, which has been put out in it's entirety on Blu Ray disc despite a good half of the material being made before they switched to filming it with HD equipment.

And yet Poldark, which was shot in HD only gets a DVD release in the U.K.

 

[setacourse]

I agree that a remaster is unlikely, but it’s still unclear what the licensing costs are for a show in SD vs HD and why even some more obscure shows are being rebuilt in HD (like Seaquest DSV, albeit with upscaled effects).

What does rebuilt in HD mean?

 

[BillJ]

What does rebuilt in HD mean?

They have to essentially rebuild the show from the original film elements.

 

[Michael]

What does rebuilt in HD mean?

Unlike older shows like the original Star Trek, which was filmed and edited on 35 mm film and can simply be scanned to achieve an HD image, shows like The Next Generation, Deep Space Nine and Voyager were edited on video tape, which has much less resolution and can't be scanned for HD. But since all film elements of these shows exist as raw footage, they can essentially re-edit them from scratch.

 

[setacourse]

^ So seaQuest was partially rebuilt then, as the CGI was upscaled (I remember some of it looking great and some not). Could DS9's visual effects likely be done again at HD quality for a reasonable long-term profit? I feel like Quark should sell them on the idea.

 

[tomswift2002]

^ So seaQuest was partially rebuilt then, as the CGI was upscaled (I remember some of it looking great and some not). Could DS9's visual effects likely be done again at HD quality for a reasonable long-term profit? I feel like Quark should sell them on the idea.

Actually with SeaQuest, what occurred back in the 1993 to 1996 era (according to the August/September 1993 Video Toaster User magazine http://www.brandonklassen.com/seaquest/misc/seaquest-cgi-video-toaster-user.jpg) was that the show was shot on film, the CGI was exported to D1 videotape, and then edited entirely on D2 videotape for North American NTSC release.

But for international release, SeaQuest was edited on 35mm film (it's unclear whether the CGI was exported directly to film at that time at film resolution, or if the NTSC D1 tapes were just upconverted to film) and the international masters for SeaQuest exist on 35mm film.

So for the Australian Blu-Rays they are using the international 35mm film masters.

 

[davejames]

Have to admit, it is pretty frustrating to see that even old shows from the 80s like Knight Rider, Airwolf, and Miami Vice are being released on blu-ray these days, but still nothing for the best Trek series ever created. Obviously I realize there would be much greater costs involved etc etc, but it's still kind of a bummer.

 

[HGN2001]

All of those are film-based shows. Just dig out the masters, re-scan, and you can do a Blu-ray.

 

[Salinga]

Now that CBS is claiming they already made profit with the new Star Trek show, I say: Put some of the millions into the remaster of DS9 and VOY. NAO!

 

[BillJ]

Have to admit, it is pretty frustrating to see that even old shows from the 80s like Knight Rider, Airwolf, and Miami Vice are being released on blu-ray these days, but still nothing for the best Trek series ever created. Obviously I realize there would be much greater costs involved etc etc, but it's still kind of a bummer.

None of those shows came anywhere near relying on special effects to the degree DS9 did.

 

[davejames]

None of those shows came anywhere near relying on special effects to the degree DS9 did.

Yeah I acknowledged there are larger reasons for that. My main point was just that it still sucks that those shows are all blu-ray now and DS9 isn't (and likely never will be).

 

[Kemaiku]

Still nothing for the best Trek series ever created.

TOS got a full digital remaster and brand new CGI initiative to improve the effects and was the first series released on Bluray. Because you couldn't possibly be saying anything else takes that spot.

 

[Chareth]

the international masters for SeaQuest exist on 35mm film.

So for the Australian Blu-Rays they are using the international 35mm film masters.

Ah, interesting. That suggests the live-action footage was edited on 35mm, unlike TNG et al, if I understand correctly, because why would they edit on DV and again on 35mm).

So given the number of newly HD classic shows that already exist in final form on film (Quantum Leap, Miami Vice), the closest parallels to DS9's situation are The X-Files and Buffy (albeit the latter done incompetently), for which some effects were re-done while others were upscaled. Twin Peaks too, which was rebuilt years ago and has a few effects.

But obviously DS9 and VOY have way more CG effects work, and only the evident financial necessity of converting to HD that these already-on-film shows demonstrate is a factor in DS9 and VOY's favour at the moment. It'd be nice to know if CBS at least tracked down what CGI assets they could from the individual artists after TNG-R in order to secure them for the future.

Or we can dream that John Van Citter's 'WOW' tweet yesterday ties into this.

 

[tomswift2002]

Ah, interesting. That suggests the live-action footage was edited on 35mm, unlike TNG et al, if I understand correctly, because why would they edit on DV and again on 35mm).

So given the number of newly HD classic shows that already exist in final form on film (Quantum Leap, Miami Vice), the closest parallels to DS9's situation are The X-Files and Buffy (albeit the latter done incompetently), for which some effects were re-done while others were upscaled. Twin Peaks too, which was rebuilt years ago and has a few effects.

But obviously DS9 and VOY have way more CG effects work, and only the evident financial necessity of converting to HD that these already-on-film shows demonstrate is a factor in DS9 and VOY's favour at the moment. It'd be nice to know if CBS at least tracked down what CGI assets they could from the individual artists after TNG-R in order to secure them for the future.

Or what it means is that Universal had the show cut twice in the 1990's, with the NTSC version acting as the "rough cut" of the show.

But if the effects were transferred from D1 to film, then at least they were converting from a component video source, rather than a composite (D2) video format. With DS9 and Voyager it would be interesting to see if the intermediary D1 masters that were made for the SFX still exist, since even if CBS just upscaled the D1 and then rescanned the film only stuff, it would look alright, if CBS kept it in 4:3 (unlike Warner and Babylon 5). But it would be nice to know exactly what resolution Universal had the CGI output to film at in the 90's.

 

[USS KG5]

And yet Poldark, which was shot in HD only gets a DVD release in the U.K.

Apprarently, the BBC have had their fingers burned a bit with Blu Ray (though they have never really explained which titles and when), so sometimes they release a DVD first, then a BD later if sales or reputation justify it, they did it with the Hollow Crown.

Blu Ray remains defiantly a niche format in the UK, which doesn't help, but the focus now must be on the BBC Store for the future, it is just where the wind is blowing.

 

[tomswift2002]

Apprarently, the BBC have had their fingers burned a bit with Blu Ray (though they have never really explained which titles and when), so sometimes they release a DVD first, then a BD later if sales or reputation justify it, they did it with the Hollow Crown.

Blu Ray remains defiantly a niche format in the UK, which doesn't help, but the focus now must be on the BBC Store for the future, it is just where the wind is blowing.

With the BBC you have to remember that a number of shows that were produced for them since the 1950's have been produced on 16mm film, which the BBC has, in the past 5 years, declared as a SD-only format. But some of their shows have been shot with a mix of film and videotape. I've got the Sherlock Holmes Collection that features the remaining, non-junked episodes of the 2nd series of the 1960's Sherlock Holmes series, and I can see that all the out door footage was shot on film, but everything shot on stage was shot on videotape. Even if the BBC or Warner Brothers wanted to re-scan the film elements (which, if they exist, would probably look better), parts of the shows would need to be upconverted from PAL video tape.

 

[Cpt. Kyle Amasov]

Hey guys, a question - has anyone thought about starting a petition? Might be best to join forces with all those VOY-on-Blu-fans to gain more momentum. Or is there any example beyond the obvious Birthright episode of how a CG update could look? Not talking about some lame over the top fanboy redo with PS1-era graphics, but some serious attempt on professional level visuals (I'm thinking of the excellent "Chasing The Infinite Sky" - if you haven't seen it, check out youtube).

Since there are no hard facts on when and why CBS would consider something like DS9 in HD worth doing, a nudge to tell them "now would be a good time" might be enough. I simply don't buy into the "TNG HD didn't make money" story. First, they are not as stupid as to ignore the long-term viability of a HD update for future exploitation. Second, the only buyers of the season box sets are hardcore freaks like us who don't mind spending money on an full-price update after we probably already bought season box sets in SD and the complete series in SD. Still, average joe (and average Trek fans alike) out there were probably just waiting for a cheaper complete series box in HD. Honestly, it should come as a surprise to CBS that the sets performed as well as they did, given that they sold season box sets of a 20 years old show for the price of initial blu ray offerings of Game of Thrones or The Walking Dead and other highly popular shows!

I guess if CBS really was unsure whether they could make money *at all* with a project like this (and were basing their decisions only on sales figues of blu rays), they would probably do some kind of test run, which is what I would do in such a case. Maybe something in the line of those stand-alone releases of the TNG two-part episodes? Way of the Warrior is DS9's BoBW and has a TNG character in it. Maybe a doube feature with Year of Hell or Scorpion (8472 in HD... )? Or even the Dominion War arc as a 6-part miniseries?

Star Trek is not a static entity like Seaquest or some other shows, but an ongoing franchise. 20 years from now, people will still watch Star Trek. I suppose it's truly a question of how long we will keep watching SD before we lose interest vs. the price tag of a remastered episode now and in 2 or 5 years. Actually, I guess taking technological developments into account as a means to cut costs per episode for a remaster to increase their return on investment is probably the issue here, not initial total unit sales for a different show's relase of season box sets. DS9's 25th birthday is coming up in two years, maybe it would be a good date to get this thing going.

 

[tomalak301]

Do Petitions work. Has one ever worked in the history of the Internet. It's a good idea in a perfect world but most seem to be ignored.

 

[USS KG5]

With the BBC you have to remember that a number of shows that were produced for them since the 1950's have been produced on 16mm film, which the BBC has, in the past 5 years, declared as a SD-only format. But some of their shows have been shot with a mix of film and videotape. I've got the Sherlock Holmes Collection that features the remaining, non-junked episodes of the 2nd series of the 1960's Sherlock Holmes series, and I can see that all the out door footage was shot on film, but everything shot on stage was shot on videotape. Even if the BBC or Warner Brothers wanted to re-scan the film elements (which, if they exist, would probably look better), parts of the shows would need to be upconverted from PAL video tape.

True - I was talking more about the modern shows, shot in HD with HD digital video camera, e.g. the Hollow Crown, that start off with an SD only release, despite initial broadcast and iPlayer availability in SD.

Given that everything is going digital, and the BBC will be able, probably relatively soon, to offer 4k downloads of new shows (is Sherlock S4 being shot with 4k cameras? Anyone know?) perhaps the DVD only releases with HD distributed solely digitally, might be the future.

DVD outliving Blu Ray as a mainstream format is a distinct possibility!