DS9 Fans: What do you wish DS9 had that other Trek shows possessed?

[RyuRoots]

Re: DS9 Fans: What do you wish DS9 had that other Trek shows possessed

But seriously, if anything, TNG and DS9 are the only two Treks that seem to NOT have insane militant defenders.

Could it be because they have less attackers?

VOY and then ENT have been the objects of disdain and ridicule for a long time. Even now in ranking lists of shows people make a point of saying ENT doesn't count enough to rank.

Maybe. But TOS has people like that too. Not all TOS fans, obviously, but I've encountered a fair bit of eye-rolling and "you just don't get it, then" or similar "arguments" about not liking aspects of it.

It more comes down to acknowledging flaws, or acknowledging that people's perceived flaws aren't necessarily invalid, in any show/movie when they're constructed/presented in a reasonable way.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Re: DS9 Fans: What do you wish DS9 had that other Trek shows possessed

no other group of fans is so critical of what i see as minor quibbles of the other treks. i can't say how many times i've seen people on here talk about the mistake of casting a female captain, or how enterprise isn't a real 'trek', or how the klingons were too timid in TNG, or the 'ugliness' of 7of9. it's senseless. why are DS9 fans so ardent about protecting the show? i don't hate the show btw, in fact, i'm becoming more of a fan every time i watch.

I'm an ardent DS9 fan, and I can say.... It wasn't a mistake to cast a female captain on VOY (the mistake was the way in which the character was used). I personally found the Klingons of TNG too be just right. I also found 7 of 9 to be very attractive. And I even love ENT.

That all being said, the only thing I'd add to DS9 would be....

more scantily-clad women.

How about scantily-clad Cardassians?

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Re: DS9 Fans: What do you wish DS9 had that other Trek shows possessed

You just don't get it, then.



No, but seriously. I've always thought that in TOS' case it's a little unique because many of the show's fans are the same passionate individuals who were alive and kicking enough back during first run to have been fans ever since. Certainly not all of them or anywhere close to all of them, but a good many of them. I meet spirited TOS fans left and right who are in their sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties and still watch the show sometimes and still gush about the show sometimes.

I would imagine after 43-odd years of defending a particular episode from naysayers it's gotten old for them. If I were in their shoes I might be unable to do anything but resort to eye-rolling despite the whole 'YMMV' attachment that should be in place for all things.

 

[RyuRoots]

Re: DS9 Fans: What do you wish DS9 had that other Trek shows possessed

At that point I'd wonder "why bother?" if you're tired of discussing it, though.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Re: DS9 Fans: What do you wish DS9 had that other Trek shows possessed

That's a pretty good point. I don't know, maybe a lot of the people I'm referring to are just... compassionate enough to call a TOS board on the internet something of a second home but tired enough of the complaints to come off as sharp and snarky.

I'd never say I understand humanity. :P

 

[Admiral Shran]

Re: DS9 Fans: What do you wish DS9 had that other Trek shows possessed

no other group of fans is so critical of what i see as minor quibbles of the other treks. i can't say how many times i've seen people on here talk about the mistake of casting a female captain, or how enterprise isn't a real 'trek', or how the klingons were too timid in TNG, or the 'ugliness' of 7of9. it's senseless. why are DS9 fans so ardent about protecting the show? i don't hate the show btw, in fact, i'm becoming more of a fan every time i watch.

I'm an ardent DS9 fan, and I can say.... It wasn't a mistake to cast a female captain on VOY (the mistake was the way in which the character was used). I personally found the Klingons of TNG too be just right. I also found 7 of 9 to be very attractive. And I even love ENT.

That all being said, the only thing I'd add to DS9 would be....

more scantily-clad women.

How about scantily-clad Cardassians?

As long as they were played by someone like Tracy Scoggins or Melanie Smith, I'd be game.

 

[Navaros]

Re: DS9 Fans: What do you wish DS9 had that other Trek shows possessed

why are DS9 fans so ardent about protecting the show?

anyway, it got me thinking: what do fans on here feel DS9 was missing that complimented the other trek's so well?

I'm a DS9 fan. For the first question, I both defend and criticize the show on the points for which it should be, and am equally ardent either way.

However, compared to other Treks, DS9 has very tangible traits they they just don't have (i.e. semi-serialized story and character development), and due to those lacks, are unquestionably incomparable to DS9 in terms of quality.

Just about the only good thing that DS9 lacks which another Trek show has, are the great SciFi alien and robots that are in TOS. TOS is the only Trek show that has quality aliens and robots in sufficient number, and therefore, unquestionably excels every other Trek show on those points, including DS9.

Another might be the epic music of TOS, which again, all other Trek shows lack and are inferior to TOS in that way.

Other than those, one would be hard-pressed to find anything more that is good which DS9 lacked yet other Trek shows had.

 

[Saito S]

Re: DS9 Fans: What do you wish DS9 had that other Trek shows possessed

Haven't posted in forever, though I've remained a lurker. Been more in a Trek-ish mood lately. First off:

How about scantily-clad Cardassians?

As long as they were played by someone like Tracy Scoggins

why are DS9 fans so ardent about protecting the show?

anyway, it got me thinking: what do fans on here feel DS9 was missing that complimented the other trek's so well?

I'm a DS9 fan. For the first question, I both defend and criticize the show on the points for which it should be, and am equally ardent either way.

That's pretty much how I feel.

However, compared to other Treks, DS9 has very tangible traits they they just don't have (i.e. semi-serialized story and character development), and due to those lacks, are unquestionably incomparable to DS9 in terms of quality.

While I personally agree that DS9 has the best character development, I don't think it's fair to just say "more serialization = better show." That DS9 had more serialization than any other Trek is, in and of itself, hard fact. But the impact that serialization has on a sci-fi story cannot simply be broken down into "more = good".

Just about the only good thing that DS9 lacks which another Trek show has, are the great SciFi alien and robots that are in TOS. TOS is the only Trek show that has quality aliens and robots in sufficient number, and therefore, unquestionably excels every other Trek show on those points, including DS9.

Another might be the epic music of TOS, which again, all other Trek shows lack and are inferior to TOS in that way.

Here we diverge, since I found the number of "quality aliens and robots" in TOS to be exceedingly small. Similarly, while I DO think that the whole "audio wallpaper" direction with modern Trek music is unfortunate, I'll still take audio wallpaper over the cheesy, overwrought music that permeates most TOS eps.

And there ARE some truly great, memorable scores from modern Trek eps, but I do agree that there should be way more. (Modern Trek movies, on the other hand, are a different matter entirely; movies 6-10 have pretty much the best music in all of Trekdom IMO).

Other than those, one would be hard-pressed to find anything more that is good which DS9 lacked yet other Trek shows had.

Since I do feel DS9 is the best overall, my answer to the OP would be similar to yours, in that I'd say "not much." But there are a few things. One thing other Treks have over DS9 is the ability to easily and logically see who is responsible for what the majority of the time on the bridge. DS9 was all over the goddamned map with this. It was nigh unto impossible to tell who did what in Ops on the station, Jadzia the bat'leth wielding science officer manned the helm on the Defiant (and speaking of the helm of the Defiant, did that console also double as the "Ops console", which was what Data manned on TNG? The answer is: sometimes), Bashir was needed on the bridge during battles for reasons unknown (except for the times he wasn't), and Ezri (the counselor) also seemed to have a regular place on the bridge, doing... whatever that ep's writers felt she should do, Worf was second in command of the Defiant, except on the days that Kira was instead, etc etc. Seriously, it was a huge, ill-defined mess. The show was so good that it was able to shrug off problems like that to some degree, but still, it's irritating.

Having said all that, I'm with RyuRoots: I've seen far less "ardent defending" of DS9 (and TNG) than the others. I'd say I've observed the most such defending of VOY, followed closely by TOS (in this case, more an eye-rolling dismissal of modern Trek as "clearly" inferior in so many ways, rather than a defense of TOS the show per se), followed by ENT.

 

[JarodRussell]

Re: DS9 Fans: What do you wish DS9 had that other Trek shows possessed

What do you wish DS9 had that other Trek shows possessed

Movies.

 

[Admiral Shran]

Re: DS9 Fans: What do you wish DS9 had that other Trek shows possessed

Haven't posted in forever, though I've remained a lurker. Been more in a Trek-ish mood lately. First off:

How about scantily-clad Cardassians?

As long as they were played by someone like Tracy Scoggins

Time to put on my ardent defender hat.

What's wrong with Tracy?

Since I do feel DS9 is the best overall, my answer to the OP would be similar to yours, in that I'd say "not much." But there are a few things. One thing other Treks have over DS9 is the ability to easily and logically see who is responsible for what the majority of the time on the bridge. DS9 was all over the goddamned map with this. It was nigh unto impossible to tell who did what in Ops on the station, Jadzia the bat'leth wielding science officer manned the helm on the Defiant (and speaking of the helm of the Defiant, did that console also double as the "Ops console", which was what Data manned on TNG? The answer is: sometimes), Bashir was needed on the bridge during battles for reasons unknown (except for the times he wasn't), and Ezri (the counselor) also seemed to have a regular place on the bridge, doing... whatever that ep's writers felt she should do, Worf was second in command of the Defiant, except on the days that Kira was instead, etc etc. Seriously, it was a huge, ill-defined mess. The show was so good that it was able to shrug off problems like that to some degree, but still, it's irritating.

The only thing that bothered me about that was the "whose second in command" confusion. In Apocalypse Rising, it's made very clear that Kira is First Officer and so outranks Worf while on the station, but that Worf is First Officer and so outranks Kira while on the Defiant. Then in later episodes, Kira assumes command of the Defiant while Worf is on the bridge.

As for the rest of the bridge command structure, I just view the Defiant's command as a much more fluid system than the Enterprise's. Whereas Picard liked to have certain people in certain places doing one particular duty, Sisko liked to switch things up and have his officers do a little bit of everything.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Re: DS9 Fans: What do you wish DS9 had that other Trek shows possessed

I'm going through B5 for the first time right now and I'm glad someone likes Tracy Scoggins; I keep hearing she's a terrible actress. (I'm in early season two right now, following along with TheGodBen's old reviews, so don't spoil!)

 

[Admiral Shran]

Re: DS9 Fans: What do you wish DS9 had that other Trek shows possessed

I wouldn't say she's a great actress, but she's certainly not bad. And, of course, she's a very attractive woman.

 

[Saito S]

Re: DS9 Fans: What do you wish DS9 had that other Trek shows possessed

What do you wish DS9 had that other Trek shows possessed

Movies.

OHSHI-

That's an excellent point that hadn't even occurred to me. And I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment. A DS9 movie could have been epic.

The only thing that bothered me about that was the "whose second in command" confusion. In Apocalypse Rising, it's made very clear that Kira is First Officer and so outranks Worf while on the station, but that Worf is First Officer and so outranks Kira while on the Defiant. Then in later episodes, Kira assumes command of the Defiant while Worf is on the bridge.

Exactly.

As for the rest of the bridge command structure, I just view the Defiant's command as a much more fluid system than the Enterprise's. Whereas Picard liked to have certain people in certain places doing one particular duty, Sisko liked to switch things up and have his officers do a little bit of everything.

Meh... doesn't work for me. Starfleet officers are all cross trained, sure, but that's so that when you HAVE to have someone do something outside their specialty, they can. Picard and Riker demonstrated on more than one occasion skills that fall outside of the narrow window of "command", Worf was asked to help with tactical systems repairs, Crusher commanded the ship in "Descent" and threw a pretty decent spinning side kick in "Suspicions", etc... Everyone has their specializations, but they are all skilled enough to function in multiple roles when needed.

With DS9, half the time it was hard to tell what the primary function of a given station in ops even was, let alone how jobs were divided up between on-duty personnel. Having everyone just do whatever, regardless of what their specialization was, was almost the norm. Granted, they didn't have a main character to sit at the conn as TNG did, but still, in-universe, having Jadzia the science officer (and then later, Nog the field-promoted cadet engineer) pilot a specialized, highly maneuverable starship, instead of having that role fall to... a pilot, is ridiculous (and having those two character pilot the ship well in battle undercuts the whole notion that characters like Riker and Paris could stand out for their piloting skills. If DS9 is to be taken at face value, piloting a starship ain't hard compared to other Starfleet roles). And then there's stuff like Bashir just hanging out on the bridge for no discernible reason during combat (then being absent for entire battles at other points in the show), which is just as baffling.

As I said, it didn't (and still doesn't, when I rewatch) seriously effect my enjoyment of the show, but that's only because the show is that good otherwise. And I admit this is a somewhat "technical" nit, but I tend to notice that kind of thing. The phasers firing out of the damned torpedo tube in TNG "Darmok" remains one of the most irritating gaffes in that entire series for me.

Time to put on my ardent defender hat.

What's wrong with Tracy?

Putting this down here so I can answer it at the same time as:

I'm going through B5 for the first time right now and I'm glad someone likes Tracy Scoggins; I keep hearing she's a terrible actress. (I'm in early season two right now, following along with TheGodBen's old reviews, so don't spoil!)

No spoilers, haha. But (and this is just my opinion; quality of an actor is highly subjective) I personally do think she's an awful actress. Not just in B5 (though certainly, since I LIKE B5, that particular bit of casting stuck out in a very bad way for me, and didn't do the already abysmal season 5 any favors), but in a couple of other things I've seen her in as well. And also, she's just sort of... hideous looking. YMMV, of course.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Re: DS9 Fans: What do you wish DS9 had that other Trek shows possessed

Yep, that's the general thing I keep hearing. Not to derail the topic by just posting B5-related stuff or anything, but thought I'd chime in response. That's basically what people keep saying is that Scoggins is a terrible actress.

Can't wait 'til season five...

 

[ReadyAndWilling]

Re: DS9 Fans: What do you wish DS9 had that other Trek shows possessed

why werent there any DS9 movies? i know DS9 wasn't popular in the mainstream like TNG or TOS were, but even a TV movie would have been great...

 

[Saito S]

Re: DS9 Fans: What do you wish DS9 had that other Trek shows possessed

why werent there any DS9 movies? i know DS9 wasn't popular in the mainstream like TNG or TOS were, but even a TV movie would have been great...

That right there pretty much IS the main reason.

The problem with something like a movie is that to even be made, someone with the money and resources has to be willing to sink said money and resources into the project. And those in charge - due to how poorly DS9 performed ratings-wise and how little known it was compared to TOS and TNG - weren't willing to take the chance. No matter how good a DS9 movie was, simply as a movie, they were concerned that it wouldn't have a broad enough appeal to justify the expense.

A TV movie is sorta kinda what we got with the 2-hour finale. Perhaps if it had been adopted as "A DS9 TV movie", instead of simply "the 2-hour finale of the TV show", it might have had a bit more of a budget, but really, I don't think it would be worth it. WYLB wouldn't change all that drastically even in that scenario. And as for a movie that takes place after WYLB, I don't think there's much point to a TV movie... it would just be another episode that suddenly appears after the series is over. Whereas a theatrical movie, had one been made, would be an event in and of itself.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Re: DS9 Fans: What do you wish DS9 had that other Trek shows possessed

I liked Scoggins in that role, though I wouldn't argue for her being a great actress. I think the way they used her backstory with another character's backstory was excellent (remaining spoiler free here).

 

[ReadyAndWilling]

Re: DS9 Fans: What do you wish DS9 had that other Trek shows possessed

why werent there any DS9 movies? i know DS9 wasn't popular in the mainstream like TNG or TOS were, but even a TV movie would have been great...

That right there pretty much IS the main reason.

The problem with something like a movie is that to even be made, someone with the money and resources has to be willing to sink said money and resources into the project. And those in charge - due to how poorly DS9 performed ratings-wise and how little known it was compared to TOS and TNG - weren't willing to take the chance. No matter how good a DS9 movie was, simply as a movie, they were concerned that it wouldn't have a broad enough appeal to justify the expense.

A TV movie is sorta kinda what we got with the 2-hour finale. Perhaps if it had been adopted as "A DS9 TV movie", instead of simply "the 2-hour finale of the TV show", it might have had a bit more of a budget, but really, I don't think it would be worth it. WYLB wouldn't change all that drastically even in that scenario. And as for a movie that takes place after WYLB, I don't think there's much point to a TV movie... it would just be another episode that suddenly appears after the series is over. Whereas a theatrical movie, had one been made, would be an event in and of itself.

that makes sense.

DS9 still looks good anyway. i'm watching it now and it looks much better than SGU.

 

[Leroy]

Re: DS9 Fans: What do you wish DS9 had that other Trek shows possessed

I wonder is history is repeating itself look how Stargate fans bash SGU and won't give it a chance (even before it premiered!) the same thing happened with TNG/TOS fans and DS9 when it came out.

 

[neozeks]

Re: DS9 Fans: What do you wish DS9 had that other Trek shows possessed

Granted, they didn't have a main character to sit at the conn as TNG did, but still, in-universe, having Jadzia the science officer (and then later, Nog the field-promoted cadet engineer) pilot a specialized, highly maneuverable starship, instead of having that role fall to... a pilot, is ridiculous (and having those two character pilot the ship well in battle undercuts the whole notion that characters like Riker and Paris could stand out for their piloting skills.

Well, Jadzia was a pilot in one of her previous lives and Nog hadn't even completed the Academy when he got field-promoted - maybe he just had a hidden piloting talent that was waiting to come out.

Rationalizations, I know, but that's what we Trek fans do best.