DS9 Fans: The Bane of Our Very Existence - Part 9,782

[Thestral]

Looks like, in fact, DS9 didn't have a six-year order starting out. That is good points about acting and such, exodus, but apparently not applicable here?

Sorry, is that a question or a statement?

Is that a reliable source?

Mostly a statement, but I'm willing to be corrected; my main point is that with the show being renewed after the third season, it's less applicable in this situation. Sorry, it made sense in my head.

It's a press release from Paramount distributed by PR Newswire, it looks completely legit to me. Couldn't find anything about renewal after the first, second, fourth, or fifth seasons though, so is it seems that DS9 opened with a three-year order that was lengthened.

Actors signed on for a three-year guaranteed deal and a six-year option?

Unfortunately, I never had the pleasure of meeting Avery Brooks in person, I was just repeating something he said on the season 7 special features. Here's what he said in the interview (November 2002):
Gods, I love the way he talks.

ETA: That's not to say that he didn't like the show, in the rest of that interview he spoke very fondly of the show, his character and the production team. But there probably was doubts at the time whether or not he would sign on for the final year.

You really should try and meet him, he's a very powerful speaker and inspriational too.

I love the way he speaks too but due to that people misunderstand him because they seem very cynical and look for negitivity. So to adlib Public Enemy:"Don't say you understand until you meet the man."

I would dearly love to meet Brooks. Or have been in one of his Rutgers theatre classes.

Species 8472 and the Vediians were not liked? I thought more should have been done with them, especially the Vediians. Only thing extra I wanted from 8472 was who they really were, instead of the borg designation. It would have been nice to if they played a role in the finale somehow.

Supposedly the reason they don't have a species name is because they're the only thing in Fluidic space, so they didn't need to distinguish themselves for anything else.

Question is, are they the only things in their because they killed everything off, or has it always been that way? Part of the allure of 8472 to me was the (original) lack of much explanation and the way they were so mysterious and clearly malevolent.

 

[TheGodBen]

According to Unimatrix Zero Part 2 the border to fluidic space is in the beta quadrant, so 8472 were probably palling around with the Romulans and Klingons behind the Federation's back.

 

[teya]

According to Unimatrix Zero Part 2 the border to fluidic space is in the beta quadrant, so 8472 were probably palling around with the Romulans and Klingons behind the Federation's back.

Fluidic space is another dimension, so the border can be in more than one place.

Axum was patrolling the border in the beta quadrant.

Obviously there is a border in the DQ since Voyager crossed into fluidic space.

 

[Anwar]

Yeah, the reaction was mostly negative to all of VOY's aliens. Most of which were the hypocritical "they shouldn't run into the same villains more than once!" types who also wanted better developed villains which would require them to be recurring...

 

[Smiley]

Yeah, the reaction was mostly negative to all of VOY's aliens. Most of which were the hypocritical "they shouldn't run into the same villains more than once!" types who also wanted better developed villains which would require them to be recurring...

Not so. Development can be done in a single episode and be quite effective. Look at the Kelvans from TOS. We learned what was driving them, we got individual characters that actually felt like real people, and there was a nice sense of menace about them.

Shallow villains are the ones that shoot at starships for no apparent reason, and VOY had more than its share of those races throughout the seven years.

As for running into the same villainous characters more than once, they really should not unless those villains have vast speed capabilities and/or territory plus a good reason to follow Voyager. Yes, Voyager did stop and smell the roses (anomalies) on their way home, but Maje Culluh making multiple appearances across about 1,000 light-years makes little sense. Ditto for anyone who followed them after one of their 5,000-10,000 light-year shortcuts.

 

[Anwar]

So, if the Dominion had made one appearance throughout all of DS9 you would've left it at that?

 

[exodus]

Yeah, the reaction was mostly negative to all of VOY's aliens. Most of which were the hypocritical "they shouldn't run into the same villains more than once!" types who also wanted better developed villains which would require them to be recurring...

Not so. Development can be done in a single episode and be quite effective. Look at the Kelvans from TOS. We learned what was driving them, we got individual characters that actually felt like real people, and there was a nice sense of menace about them.

Shallow villains are the ones that shoot at starships for no apparent reason, and VOY had more than its share of those races throughout the seven years.

As for running into the same villainous characters more than once, they really should not unless those villains have vast speed capabilities and/or territory plus a good reason to follow Voyager. Yes, Voyager did stop and smell the roses (anomalies) on their way home, but Maje Culluh making multiple appearances across about 1,000 light-years makes little sense. Ditto for anyone who followed them after one of their 5,000-10,000 light-year shortcuts.

"Distant Origin" showed how Voyager can be tracked not to mention didn't Voyager follow other ships by their warp signature? Voyager being the only Federation ship in that part of space would be easy to follow given that info.

Everybody had good reason to follow Voyager, it was the only ship in the Delta Quad. with numerous types of advanced technology. Hell, the bio-neural gel packs even made the Intrepid class ship unique in the Alpha Q.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You think the Vidiians would be insane to aquire sole possession of all the Klingon DNA on tht side of the galaxy? Well, that we knew of, not that a ship 20 thousand light years away counts as the vidiians stomping grounds... But if they were tracking decayed warp trails, then they would have noticed Equinox's straight off even if it was only 6 months old.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Yeah, the reaction was mostly negative to all of VOY's aliens. Most of which were the hypocritical "they shouldn't run into the same villains more than once!" types who also wanted better developed villains which would require them to be recurring...

I see nothing wrong with running into the same villains more than once if it's within a relatively short space of time or there's another convincing justification for it. I'm sure they could have written things so that the 8472 could have appeared more than they did for instance and that could have been good. But seriously, who hates the Vidiians? Who hates the 8472? The fact that people don't like the Kazon doesn't make them crazy Voyager-haters who are out to get the show. And the Borg weren't a problem as such, it was just that, like in TNG, there were certain episodes that made them seem less threatening than they should have been.

 

[Anwar]

The fans hated the Vidiians because they were "Space Lepers", they looked too ugly and their concept was too disgusting (in other words, they had weak stomachs) so the writers had to get rid of them.

With 8472, they hated them for being able to fight the Borg and win. If they had been a TNG or DS9 creation no one would complain, but for VOY to have made an alien race that can fight the Borg was a cardinal sin.

 

[Smiley]

^Those are not majority opinions. Maybe a couple fans you've talked to have said such things, but that is nowhere near the same thing as a consensus.

Again, statements like your last sentence are not an argument and are not worthy of attention.

 

[Anwar]

Those statements about the VOY aliens make a lot more sense (given the VOY hatred that permeates the fandom) than ANY other opinions about those aliens we've ever seen on these forums. I've been here for years and I've never seen anyone compliment a single alien VOY race as anything other than a total failure. The fandom's consensus is clear when it comes to VOY's aliens: they were all terrible without any redeeming or interesting qualities.

Meanwhile, 1-D bozos like the Breen in DS9 are hailed as excellent aliens with oodles of character when they were just crap.

Double.Standard.

 

[apenpaap]

Those statements about the VOY aliens make a lot more sense (given the VOY hatred that permeates the fandom) than ANY other opinions about those aliens we've ever seen on these forums. I've been here for years and I've never seen anyone compliment a single alien VOY race as anything other than a total failure. The fandom's consensus is clear when it comes to VOY's aliens: they were all terrible without any redeeming or interesting qualities.

Try searching General Trek for "vidiians" or "8472". The posts I came across were all stuff about how great these were. If you searched for "krenim", "hirogen", "vaadwaur" or "voth" I think you'll get similar results. As long as youy don't search for "kazon" or "malon".

 

[Anwar]

I see stuff like "the kazon were so terrible so they should've just used the vidiians more".

That's not saying the Vidiians were any good (from their POV), it's just that they hate the Kazon so much they'd settle for anything.

 

[Tallis Rhul]

I'd like to put my hand up as a BSG hater if I may.

Look, the point is Anwar that whenever you get 2 series that are of a similar principal in any way you'll get people who love one and hate the other. I get insanely annoyed by people who tell me Babylon 5 is better than DS9, because they've never seen DS9. They outright rule it out as cack before they ever watch it.

I'm a DS9 fan. I like it better than Voyager. However, I LIKE Voyager. Maybe that makes me a freak, but there it is. I also love Enterprise, TNG and TOS. Here's the inside scoop as to why.

It's all Star Trek.

You can't rule out any show as being unilaterally not worth watching, because every single episode is different, and has different writers. I'd rank my favourite episodes of Trek as a whole as Shadows and Symbols (DS9), Scorpion (Both parts, VOY), The Andorian Incident (ENT) and What You Leave Behind (DS9). I'm fickle, and they may change, but had I seen a DS9 episode that I felt to be of poor quality, I would be happy to say so (and am now trying to think of an example which I will post later if one springs to mind... it's worth noting that I'm equally at a loss to think of a poor Voyager off the top of my head).

The key issues here are taste, and people's ability to put across their point of view in a tactful way, not which trek is better.

 

[tomalak301]

As much as I like DS9, I actually didn't like the Breen. For one, they came out of left field and we really didn't know much about them other than they were from a frozen wasteland. Then they are this menacing force who attacked earth and broke the Golden Gate Bridge and people shrug that off after one episode. That and you didn't understand them because of the helmets, they came across as too forced and comedish when their acts didn't deserve it. Compare that to someone like 8472 which did get an amazing introduction in Scorpion and, well, there is no comparison.

 

[Gotham Central]

I see stuff like "the kazon were so terrible so they should've just used the vidiians more".

That's not saying the Vidiians were any good (from their POV), it's just that they hate the Kazon so much they'd settle for anything.

Dude, do you live in Pleasantville because honestly your world tends to be totally black and white.


Get this through your head, Its not always the aliens that suck its how they are used.

You honestly expect us to believe that there are fans that hate the Viidians because they are UGLY? I mean, have you seen the borg? I'm calling BS on this.


Understand, not all characters, stories, aliens etc are equal. You cannot simply transplant characters into other series and expect to get the same result. If the Dominion had appeard on Voyager, shown up in two episodes, simply been meanacing and started fighting...they would not be the same villians as what we got on DS9. What made DS9's villians interesting was that they stuck around. There was sufficient time for them to have personalities and complex relationships. Plopping them into a Voyager 2 parter and then moving on would simply change the dynamic and diminsh them as villians. Conversely, transplant the Vidians to the Gamma Quadrant, and focus on their plight as a civilization, examine how it collapsed, the impact that its had on the GQ, play up their desperation and do that over several years, and the Vidians become one of the great races in Star Trek.

You need to stop with this absurd notion that people seem to have a genetic predisposition to dislike Voyager. People usually have valid reasons for disliking something. Infact you seem to be the ONLY person who says people dislike something "just because they do" and for no reason. Everyone else has given you reasons. Whether you accept our criticisms is your affair.

 

[Thestral]

I've been here for years and I've never seen anyone compliment a single alien VOY race as anything other than a total failure. The fandom's consensus is clear when it comes to VOY's aliens: they were all terrible without any redeeming or interesting qualities.

This is a lie. You can keep saying the same thing over and over again, but it doesn't make it any more true.

From this thread alone:

Species 8472 and the Vediians... I thought more should have been done with them, especially the Vediians. It would have been nice to if [8472] played a role in the finale somehow.

I, and probably many other DS9 fans, liked the Vidiians and 8472, it's the Kazon that people tended not to like. No double standard.

As a Niner, 8472 are one of my favorite adversarial Star Trek aliens... I think the Voth were a really awesome villain and wish they'd shown up more than just once. The Hirogen were solid...

From TheGodBen's review thread:

...and everything about 8472 is cool.

Scorpion is fantastic. The teaser is brilliant, then the story slowly builds up the tension. 8472 is a great invention, made possible by the advancement in cgi technology.

I heart 'Scorpion,' both parts. Two terrific hours of television. (Part of me wishes that Species 8472 had been tied to those little parasites from TNG's 'Conspiracy' somehow though.)

That's 5 minutes of research (10 minutes of quoting though)

ETA: Also, I've never cared much for the Breen, for the reasons tomalok gave. I mean, they're alright I suppose and get a couple minutes of awesome, but clearly shoehorned in and unnecessary.

 

[Anwar]

Get this through your head, Its not always the aliens that suck its how they are used.

And I'm saying that given the hatred that permeates the fandom that it never mattered how the aliens were used nothing would have been good enough for the haters.

You honestly expect us to believe that there are fans that hate the Viidians because they are UGLY? I mean, have you seen the borg? I'm calling BS on this.

The Borg aren't that ugly, they aren't patchwork creations like the Vidiians.

Understand, not all characters, stories, aliens etc are equal.

That's partially the point of this argument: That the haters are SO biased that if you take something despised out of the despised series and put it into a well-liked one (which changing NOTHING about the specific thing) the haters suddenly become lovers. That writing doesn't matter, it's just what show you're on. Inequality enforced by favoritism.

You cannot simply transplant characters into other series and expect to get the same result.

Like I said, it all depends on what show you're on. That ensures the result, not the presentation or writing.

If the Dominion had appeared on Voyager, shown up in two episodes, simply been menacing and started fighting...they would not be the same villains as what we got on DS9.

No, and they'd be despised for being a B&B creation and thus unworthy of existence. Even if the writing was on par with "The Jem'Hadar".

What made DS9's villains interesting was that they stuck around. There was sufficient time for them to have personalities and complex relationships. Plopping them into a Voyager 2 parter and then moving on would simply change the dynamic and diminish them as villains.

And when VOY tried to do the same with its' villains all they got was hash criticisms and the innate stupidity of recurring villains.

Conversely, transplant the Vidians to the Gamma Quadrant, and focus on their plight as a civilization, examine how it collapsed, the impact that its had on the GQ, play up their desperation and do that over several years, and the Vidiians become one of the great races in Star Trek.

Mostly due to being on DS9 and not VOY. That whole paragraph of yours is a two-parter in DS9 after which they are rarely heard from again and the Vidiians ARE one of Trek's best. Because it's DS9.

You need to stop with this absurd notion that people seem to have a genetic predisposition to dislike Voyager. People usually have valid reasons for disliking something.

Not in this case. As a witness who was there from the start, I can honestly say that there was a predisposition against VOY from the first episode onwards (and even before that). I never understood it myself.

 

[TheGodBen]

From TheGodBen's review thread:

Here's a few more about the Vidiians:

Phage (****)

I have always enjoyed the Vidiians since they are very sympathetic villains and certainly not your usual Trek aliens. How can we judge them for wanting to survive? Would we stoop to harvesting people’s organs if the same thing happened to us? I like Janeway’s speech at the end where she comes to realise that she cannot do anything to stop them because of the situation Voyager is in, this does help separate this show from TNG and DS9 where the Vidiians would doubtlessly be arrested and brought to trial.

A solid instalment.

Phage is one of my favs from season 1. Most definitely. Vidiians were such an amazing villain. The tradegy of them made them more than your awerage one dimensional bad guys of the quadrant.

I think Phage should have been aired first after Caretaker - it's a good story that emphasizes the differences between the Alpha and Delta Quadrants, since if they were an Alpha Quadrant Alien of the Week, they could just petition for medical assistance from the Federation and recieve it, while in the Delta Quadrant, the species has to resort to organ piracy. It would have been a good hook, better than a technobabble plot, heavy on the characters or not.

Faces (****)

There is also a really cool bit where the Vidiian rips off Durst's face and uses it as his own in order to attract Klingon B'Elanna. The Delta Quadrant truly is fucked up.

I liked [Lifesigns] a great deal. I thought it yet another great use of the Vidians, a race that I felt Voyager got just right, and didn't press into stories that didn't really need them.

The general consensus on the Vidiians seems to be that they were a great alien race, but from season 2 on (excepting Lifesigns) they were used as stock bad-guys and their unique nature was not exploited correctly. So there was a big thumbs-up for the Vidiians, a small thumbs-down for the writers.