DS9 Fans: The Bane of Our Very Existence - Part 9,782

[The Grim Ghost]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

Anwar, I think you're going after the wrong guy. There are definitely big DS9 fans who despise Voyager, I don't think anybody would argue that.

GodBen obviously doesn't like Voyager, I mean his thread is titled "A Hater.."

But at least he is actually watching the episodes and commenting on why he does/doesn't like them instead of dismissing the entire show out of hand like so many others have.

By my standards, yeah he is way too hard on the show. But his reviews are written in an entertaining way and he makes a lot of good points.

Look, I really hate Enterprise AND NuBSG. I hate the premise, I hate the characters, I hate the ships..Yeah I just hate it.

My solution is to just stay away from those forums. And when I encounter someone on another board who is into them, I don't feel the need to run them down. I just keep my comments to myself. Who cares if somebody likes something I don't, or vice versa? I wish more Trek fans had that kind of attitude. Concentrate on what you like and avoid what you don't. Then everyone is happy.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

Exactly. I see no reason to attack Voyager fans because they have different tastes than I do.

Why should I as a Niner be called a "lapdog" because I ended up liking nuBSG as well? It's true, I do think DS9's characters were given much more depth by the writers than most of the TNG characters. And I do also see nuBSG precursors in DS9. But again...I am not going to tell TNG fans they have no right to enjoy what they enjoy. I used to as well...but when it comes to TNG, I recognize that loss as something coming from within myself and I certainly have no right or reason to attack anyone else over it.

And for the record, I think it was good of Sisko to forgive Picard. Admittedly, yes...I liked seeing Picard thrown off-balance, but that's not because I truly hate Picard (even if I disagree with him). It's because even a tiny show of emotion from a character as stoic as Picard makes a very powerful statement as to how deeply scarred he was by his assimilation, and what the Borg did as a result. It's a subtle hint of how much turmoil he must still be feeling inside, and frankly, it's good acting on Stewart's part.

So again...even if I have lost much when it comes to my ability to enjoy TNG, and even if I have reasons I ended up not liking Voyager after giving it over three years--that does not make me irrational, or make me a hater, or give me any need to attack fans with differing opinions. So please, don't do the same to us Niners.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

And it's painting a bull's eye on your forehead if you expect VOY fans to take you seriously.

Which once again proves how removed you are from the everyday, tolerant Voyager fan, most of whom I admire. Many of them posted in the thread and we had several interesting discussions over the months, most of which were civil. We may not agree, but that doesn't mean that we trade insults with one another. (Except for Jaespol, who was eventually banned.)

I read most of those reviews too, pretty clear that after he finishes them (and rates VOY at something along 3/10) he'll go on to give DS9 a 10/10 score while giving skin deep reviews.

And you claim to have read them? Because if you paid any bloody attention at all you'd know that out of six seasons Voyager has averaged 4.9/10, a stone's throw away from me liking it more than I dislike it. Unlike many people I don't inflate review scores to make 7 an average score; 5 is the average on my scale, anything less than 3 is bad.

As for loving TNG and liking ENT, I'll give him a "tolerance" towards those shows as a more precise definition of how he feels about them.

Oh, you will, will you? What a tremendous gift that is for you to bestow upon me.

Anwar, I grew up with TNG, it was not only my first Star Trek, it was my first television show. I love it, it holds a special place in my heart. You can't grant me anything towards it because you're not me and you don't decide what I like on television (thank christ).

As for Enterprise, are you saying that a fan of dark and serialised story-telling couldn't love Enterprise's third season?

I'm still disgusted by the Niners who say Sisko should never have forgiven Picard and hated him forever because the idea of any of the characters from DS9 liking anyone from TNG is also disgusting to them.

I've never met those people, everyone that I've seen comment upon Emissary has said that it was a fantastic story because of how the Prophets made Sisko realise that he had been holding onto the pain of his wife's death and he had to learn to let that go. Thus, the second scene with Picard where Sisko forgave him was a very important scene in Sisko's character arc, and a welcome one.

By the way, I also love O'Brien. I loved him on TNG, I loved him on DS9. That's how you should write an Irishman, Fair Haven is not how you should write an Irishman.


Anwar, seriously, why do you say these things? Why can't you just accept reality? For somebody who is constantly complaining about dark and unlikeable characters in TV shows, you seem to have a very low opinion of humanity yourself. Open your eyes and you will see that the majority of people on this board are kind and tolerant towards one another.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

Also there are a lot of people out there who love TNG, DS9 and VOY!​

I happen to be one of them. I get something different out of each show.​

 

[kimc]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

While I am not opposed to a thread based around criticising Anwar's irrational insults of "Niners", I believe that in the last thread his positions were already exposed as being... abnormal. Based on the fact that everyone else criticised him based on what he was saying and were trying to point out just how irrational he was being (to varying degrees of politeness), I think that his own arguments do a better job at defeating him than I would be able to do at the present time.

It's just sad that Anwar takes only the people who hate Voyager and makes them official representatives of Niners or some such and totally ignores the people who actually like both shows, with some who like DS9 over Voy and other who like Voy over DS9. Why not make Niners who like Voyager, representative of the Niners? And TNG fans who like DS9 representative of TNG fans, and DS9 fans who like TNG, representative of DS9 fans, and Voy fans who like DS9 be representative of Voy fans etc.?

Besides, if the "hatedom" pisses you off so much, Anwar why bother with them? You're only going into a negative spiral, where you're constantly looking for anyone who says anything that sounds to you to be remotely critical of your beloved shows, and make them out to be part of "the hatedom" or a "hater for life" or some such, which actually makes you look like a hater who thrives on negativity. You could so easily spend time on the positive aspects of every show.

Anyway, that's my opinion. What you do with your time is your business.

Comments like the above are the reason why akiraprise and I agreed that thread should be closed. I personally don't have the time nor inclination to declare certain topics verboten so I'm going to leave this open for the time being.

HOWEVER, if there is ONE more personal comment in this thread it will be shut down and the poster will get a warning. Keep it about the posts and topics - not about individual posters. That's part of the board rules.

Just to be clear - there will be no "friendlies" - warning then thread closure. The end.

Also, since the OP of the other thread wanted it closed I'm changing the thread title.

 

[Anwar]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

Well, the rest of this post would seem like a "personal attack" so I'll try and limit it to more general stuff.

As for Enterprise, are you saying that a fan of dark and serialised story-telling couldn't love Enterprise's third season?

Yes, I can. I've seen a vast majority of reviews and opinions about that arc and the complaints outweighed everything else. They complain that it should've been foreshadowed from the first episode, that the attack should've lasted the whole episode, that the whole bit about the Vulcans helping find out what happened should've been an episode in itself, that they should've had Starfleet HQ be in Florida to be destroyed by the Xindi, and other stuff.

Never mind that if it had been DS9 or NuBSG no one would be complaining.

I've never met those people, everyone that I've seen comment upon Emissary has said that it was a fantastic story because of how the Prophets made Sisko realise that he had been holding onto the pain of his wife's death and he had to learn to let that go. Thus, the second scene with Picard where Sisko forgave him was a very important scene in Sisko's character arc, and a welcome one.

I've read posts that complain the whole thing was racist because Picard was a white man and that he deserves to be hated because he's a TNG character.

Anwar, seriously, why do you say these things? Why can't you just accept reality? For somebody who is constantly complaining about dark and unlikeable characters in TV shows, you seem to have a very low opinion of humanity yourself. Open your eyes and you will see that the majority of people on this board are kind and tolerant towards one another.

No, I just have a low opinion of the haters. And the irrational Trek haters. And when the "kind and tolerant" people you say exist openly outnumber the haters who post garbage and possibly do something to put the haters in their place then I'll say my eyes are opened.

 

[JustKate]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

I am actually pretty sure the tolerant people do outnumber the haters, and by quite a bit, but the haters might post more - people do post more often about something they feel strongly about - or those posts could just stand out more, simply because "I hate THIS and I hate THAT and I hate THE OTHER too" is more noticeable than "I like different things about all of the shows."

 

[exodus]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

Well, the rest of this post would seem like a "personal attack" so I'll try and limit it to more general stuff.

As for Enterprise, are you saying that a fan of dark and serialised story-telling couldn't love Enterprise's third season?

Yes, I can. I've seen a vast majority of reviews and opinions about that arc and the complaints outweighed everything else. They complain that it should've been foreshadowed from the first episode, that the attack should've lasted the whole episode, that the whole bit about the Vulcans helping find out what happened should've been an episode in itself, that they should've had Starfleet HQ be in Florida to be destroyed by the Xindi, and other stuff.

I think it felt like a rushed and contrived arc based story simply to recapture the audience B&B ignored thru DS9 but realized they despirately needed them for ratings to boost ENT. Beyond that, nothing about s3 had any emotional impact and was a poor way to play upon the feelings that accured after 9/11.

Justkate, I agree. I found more fans of Voyager off line that have no interest posting on message boards, than I've found haters.

 

[Anwar]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

But if it had been a DS9 or NuBSG arc, would you have enjoyed it more?

 

[ChristopherPike]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

I am actually pretty sure the tolerant people do outnumber the haters, and by quite a bit, but the haters might post more - people do post more often about something they feel strongly about - or those posts could just stand out more, simply because "I hate THIS and I hate THAT and I hate THE OTHER too" is more noticeable than "I like different things about all of the shows."

Bingo. Those with an axe to grind will always be louder, being so passionately invested in brow-beating everyone else into submission. For some reason, in my experience that does tend to be a superiority complex exculsive to Niners... I dip in and out of Voyager thesedays. I don't hate it. Heck I religiously watched it when it was all-new Trek and bought it on videotape alongside DS9. It's only years later, I've decided which I liked more overall... despite great shows in both. Voyager appealed to my younger self, while there's something I've learned to appreciate about DS9 now I'm a little older.

Star Trek fans are so lucky having five shows, each with slightly different styles. It's kind of depressing that all these years later, fans hold somekind of warped view that series divide along Ron Moore and Brannon Braga lines. What about Michael Piller (who co-created both post TNG shows), Ira Steven Behr, Jeri Taylor... I could go on. It's like we have this Gene Roddenberry hero fixation of giving one man a crown to wear, when each series were a team effort to get off the ground... just like TOS with Gene L Coon, D.C. Fontana, and others. Had ENT survived cancellation, I presume it would've divided between Braga & Coto fans... the madness just never ends! Star Trek to me is Star Trek, the whole damn thing! You take the rough with the smooth and the sun doesn't shine out of any single contributor's backside.

 

[Anwar]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

Frankly I always put Piller on a higher level than all the others Modern Trek writers/producers.

And I blame Jeri Taylor for a lot of VOY's early problems, she should have been used for character creation but that's it.

Behr, well he's made it clear he loved doing DS9 and looks down on TNG and VOY.

 

[teya]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

And I blame Jeri Taylor for a lot of VOY's early problems, she should have been used for character creation but that's it.

Because she did such a fantastic job with Chakotay....

I can't imagine what we'd have gotten if she had more time to devote to Tribe Hollywood.

 

[Anwar]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

Piller wanted arc storytelling and crew tensions. Taylor didn't, and she wanted holonovel stories. Big guess who I wanted to be the big one in charge more.

 

[rahullak]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

Comments like the above are the reason why akiraprise and I agreed that thread should be closed. I personally don't have the time nor inclination to declare certain topics verboten so I'm going to leave this open for the time being.

HOWEVER, if there is ONE more personal comment in this thread it will be shut down and the poster will get a warning. Keep it about the posts and topics - not about individual posters. That's part of the board rules.

Just to be clear - there will be no "friendlies" - warning then thread closure. The end.

Also, since the OP of the other thread wanted it closed I'm changing the thread title.

Oops....my apologies. But just to be clear my comments were civil and directed at Anwar, but was in no way an attack. It was more like advise and I can see Anwar took it as such.

But won't happen again.

 

[rahullak]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

I am actually pretty sure the tolerant people do outnumber the haters, and by quite a bit, but the haters might post more - people do post more often about something they feel strongly about - or those posts could just stand out more, simply because "I hate THIS and I hate THAT and I hate THE OTHER too" is more noticeable than "I like different things about all of the shows."

Bingo. Those with an axe to grind will always be louder, being so passionately invested in brow-beating everyone else into submission. For some reason, in my experience that does tend to be a superiority complex exculsive to Niners... I dip in and out of Voyager thesedays. I don't hate it. Heck I religiously watched it when it was all-new Trek and bought it on videotape alongside DS9. It's only years later, I've decided which I liked more overall... despite great shows in both. Voyager appealed to my younger self, while there's something I've learned to appreciate about DS9 now I'm a little older.

Star Trek fans are so lucky having five shows, each with slightly different styles. It's kind of depressing that all these years later, fans hold somekind of warped view that series divide along Ron Moore and Brannon Braga lines. What about Michael Piller (who co-created both post TNG shows), Ira Steven Behr, Jeri Taylor... I could go on. It's like we have this Gene Roddenberry hero fixation of giving one man a crown to wear, when each series were a team effort to get off the ground... just like TOS with Gene L Coon, D.C. Fontana, and others. Had ENT survived cancellation, I presume it would've divided between Braga & Coto fans... the madness just never ends! Star Trek to me is Star Trek, the whole damn thing! You take the rough with the smooth and the sun doesn't shine out of any single contributor's backside.

Hear Hear!

 

[ChristopherPike]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

I've never really given this much thought... But would it be fair to say having so many strong female characters within Voyager, made the audience predominately female too? The introduction of Seven was an attempt to balance that out but it backfired... or perhaps not? I figure DS9 probably shifted to a largely male one sometime around the third season and stayed that way, being a show about prolonged conflict (despite brief sidebars into family issues, religious and comedy aspects). Or is this too simplistic a view of the fracture between hardcore supporters of these series?

 

[JustKate]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

^ I think it might be too simplistic, although you make some good points. I'd love to see some hard figures, but from what I can recall, none of the Treks had "predominantly female" audiences. Not one. Not even close. But if anybody has demographics, I'd love to see them.

And I wouldn't say that Seven "backfired," either. At the time, at least, I believe she was considered one of the most popular characters on the show. And she's actually pretty popular here, too.

 

[Anwar]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

And also, the hot sci-fi babe has always been part of the genre. Every friggin sci-fi series out there that we can remember had at least one in their run.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

^ I think it might be too simplistic, although you make some good points. I'd love to see some hard figures, but from what I can recall, none of the Treks had "predominantly female" audiences. Not one. Not even close. But if anybody has demographics, I'd love to see them.

Me too. I mean, supposedly I SHOULD be male, being a Niner, by that description...

:checks: Hmm...I see eye ridges, forehead and neck ridges...but I don't see any evidence of THAT.

So as you can see, cynical Cardassian here. But definitely female.

And I wouldn't say that Seven "backfired," either. At the time, at least, I believe she was considered one of the most popular characters on the show. And she's actually pretty popular here, too.

Probably depends on the fan, though. I really felt...embarrassed for the actress, and I didn't like it.

 

[Anwar]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

You didn't like her character, or you didn't like that you felt sorry for her? Ryan is okay with her time on Trek and doesn't resent it.