DS9 Episodes- Silly Mistakes, NitPicks, Inaccuracies

[PSGarak]

I may be wrong, but I always thought the Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar were more like the CIA or KGB. They were like a secret police, rather than a military force. I'd imagine the mission was secret even to the rest of the Romulan Empire or Cardassia, much like CIA bombings of Third World countries. When they say that the Romualns and Cardassians are no longer a threat I take that to mean the entirety of their intelligence agencies were wiped out, leaving them with no "eyes and ears", so to speak.

No, you're not wrong. They are the intelligence of their respective governments, not the military. That's pretty much exactly how it was meant, that the intelligence branches were gone. In Cardassian society, it created a power vacuum that caused the collapse of their government as it had been prior to the loss.

 

[Nightdiamond]

This is interesting; startrek.com says he was found in his natural gelatinous state, but doesn't say if he was contained inside anything.

Odo once said Dr. Mora placed him in a vacuum chamber. The fact that he survived even as an infant, shows it can't be dangerous to him, although Odo seemed truly annoyed by the memory...

Another strange thing about Odo- he wears a com badge that works. He has also either changed shape from wearing it or reverted to his liquid state from wearing it.

Does that mean he can recreate a com badge that actually works? Remember he has been shown to use this badge to contact other places thousands of miles away, like a ship in orbit...how is he generating the energy to power it?

I may be wrong, but I always thought the Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar were more like the CIA or KGB. They were like a secret police, rather than a military force. I'd imagine the mission was secret even to the rest of the Romulan Empire or Cardassia, much like CIA bombings of Third World countries. When they say that the Romualns and Cardassians are no longer a threat I take that to mean the entirety of their intelligence agencies were wiped out, leaving them with no "eyes and ears", so to speak.

No, you're not wrong. They are the intelligence of their respective governments, not the military. That's pretty much exactly how it was meant, that the intelligence branches were gone. In Cardassian society, it created a power vacuum that caused the collapse of their government as it had been prior to the loss.

That's a good explanation for it. The Founder did refer to them by name and as organizations. They were capable of very horrible things so the Founders became threatened by them..

The comment originally reminded me of Best of both worlds where Shelby and the others seemed to say that the entire Starfleet was down after the Borg attack although only nearly 50 ships were lost. ..

It was made to look as if that was the Federation's entire fleet and that the lost of those ships severely crippled Starfleet...

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

This is interesting; startrek.com says he was found in his natural gelatinous state, but doesn't say if he was contained inside anything.

Odo once said Dr. Mora placed him in a vacuum chamber. The fact that he survived even as an infant, shows it can't be dangerous to him, although Odo seemed truly annoyed by the memory...

Dumb science question here. If Dr. Mora did that on Bajor, would there have been a significant temperature drop inside the chamber? In other words, would we know from that if he could survive not just the vacuum, but direct exposure to the cold of space as well?

 

[Nightdiamond]

This is interesting; startrek.com says he was found in his natural gelatinous state, but doesn't say if he was contained inside anything.

Odo once said Dr. Mora placed him in a vacuum chamber. The fact that he survived even as an infant, shows it can't be dangerous to him, although Odo seemed truly annoyed by the memory...

Dumb science question here. If Dr. Mora did that on Bajor, would there have been a significant temperature drop inside the chamber? In other words, would we know from that if he could survive not just the vacuum, but direct exposure to the cold of space as well?

Laas did, when he seemed to have be soaring through space basically as himself, no ship.

And laas even became fire at one point. That just brings up another nit-if Laas can survive as a space form out in space, how could Odo be vulnerable to freezing-Odo could have turned into fire and protected himself and Weyoun!

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I imagine Laas had a ship where he had adopted some sort of physical properties that allowed him to withstand the vacuum. This raises the question, then, of whether he had to land or hitch rides on passing ships every 18 hours, if he'd brought a container, or if he could indeed withstand the vacuum in his natural form.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I imagine Laas had a ship where he had adopted some sort of physical properties that allowed him to withstand the vacuum. This raises the question, then, of whether he had to land or hitch rides on passing ships every 18 hours, if he'd brought a container, or if he could indeed withstand the vacuum in his natural form.

Right...if he could only hold his shape for 18 hours, then considering that it can take longer periods of time to travel between stars/systems, what did he do if he had to revert in the middle of space?

It looked almost as if he were sailing through space rather than propelling himself. He was behind the runabout as it were going at warp.

The idea that Laas had enough energy to propel himself at warp, seems unlikely, though I'm no physics expert.


In fact someone in some star trek physics books once pointed out some interesting.

The matter replicator and the Holodec were virtual nuclear disasters. Because they used a similar process, the possibility of a megaton explosion could occur because of the process of releasing energy each time it is used...

I believe they said the same thing would happen with Changelings, when the issue of how they alter their mass comes up...

 

[carlmarx]

Laas did, when he seemed to have be soaring through space basically as himself, no ship.

And laas even became fire at one point. That just brings up another nit-if Laas can survive as a space form out in space, how could Odo be vulnerable to freezing-Odo could have turned into fire and protected himself and Weyoun!

Remember though, that Odo had stated on several occasions that he's not that experienced as a shape-shifter. Laas had been on his own for I think over 100 or 200 years, right? While Odo was around 30 or so if I'm not mistaken. Odo had been around humanoids all his life just about and still had trouble mimicking faces. He also was very impressed by Laas' abilities, especially when he turned into fog, and also it was established in that episode that he hadn't taken another shape in quite some time. So at that point, which was around the time of "Treachery..." too, I doubt if Odo would have the ability to turn into something like fire to protect himself.

And I guess I'd assume that shape-shifters are naturally space-faring. Laas just took on a different form to travel faster and make himself less vulnerable.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Laas did, when he seemed to have be soaring through space basically as himself, no ship.

And laas even became fire at one point. That just brings up another nit-if Laas can survive as a space form out in space, how could Odo be vulnerable to freezing-Odo could have turned into fire and protected himself and Weyoun!

Remember though, that Odo had stated on several occasions that he's not that experienced as a shape-shifter. Laas had been on his own for I think over 100 or 200 years, right? While Odo was around 30 or so if I'm not mistaken. Odo had been around humanoids all his life just about and still had trouble mimicking faces. He also was very impressed by Laas' abilities, especially when he turned into fog, and also it was established in that episode that he hadn't taken another shape in quite some time. So at that point, which was around the time of "Treachery..." too, I doubt if Odo would have the ability to turn into something like fire to protect himself.

And I guess I'd assume that shape-shifters are naturally space-faring. Laas just took on a different form to travel faster and make himself less vulnerable.

But we have seen Odo do some fascinating things- he actually turned into a rat in one episode, a chair in another, and computer covering in another.

It would seem strange he can recreate a rat's features, or even a computer covering, but after spending his life around humans he can't master the indent around the nose, lol... How much time did he spend around rats???

The weirdest one of all was when he changed into some semi tangible form and floated around Kira. In fact that was the same episode as when he met Laas, but yet he was amazed at Laas abilities......


The 'Odo shivering' episode is the one that gets a lot nitpicks, at least from what I've seen in other forums.

Someone once brought up in these forums that this could be the case of the new/different writer coming in, not familiar with the earlier canon, and added their own ideas.

One nit I've also seen-on the subject of strange physics, is about the Prophets. It was from the same book I once read. It said a being made of pure energy would be functioning at the speed of light.

Communication, almost any interaction with a being of matter would be almost impossible. An energy being's communication would be done in less than seconds before it reached the physical target.

That's their (the physicist) theory anyway, it's an interesting piece of science....

 

[Tulin]

Deep Space Nine has such a massive ensemble and a large group of extras that sometimes they forget where they've placed them.

For instance, in the final ep of S1, just before the school blows up, we see Morn walk past in the background. About a minute later, we see him walk past again. Either there are two Morns or he is doing REALLY fast laps of the whole Promenade.


Also, in a much later episode, there is this one male extra we see ALL the time. I believe he is a security extra, even though he wears a SF uniform. Anyway, we see him on the Defiant, taking somebody to the bridge. We then cut IMMEDIATELY back to the station and there he is in the background, walking past camera. That ALWAYS bugged me because, since I thought he was cute, I ALWAYS noticed him in a scene. Thus when I saw him in the background he jumped out at me.

Similar thing happened with a SF officer in Ops. She has dark skin and her hair was all up or something. Cut to am arriving ship and there she is, coming through the round docking door.

 

[carlmarx]

How about the fact that apparently Klingons either speak English at strictly Klingon ceremonies or Sisko, O'Brien and Odo all speak Klingon?

 

[Nightdiamond]

Here's something I don't get; In What You Leave Behind, we learned that all the Dominion forces have retreated to Cardassia Prime, after the major battle.

That the means all the planets in the Union have been abandoned to the Federation Alliance.

If it doesn't, the storyline is going to make little sense.

While surrounding the entire fleet and planet, the leaders discuss the situation.

Yet Sisko asks what if the Dominion use that time to rebuild their fleet... If all their other planets and systems have been captured, and their fleet is locked away and surrounded on Cardassia Prime, it doesn't seem much hope for the Dominion anyway.

Do they think the Dominion can build those ships right in front of them and then break out of the siege?

Maybe it's possible, they can build ships at a fast rate, but I didn't see any shipyards in the picture...


And for the ending... I always thought the ending was ok, but after reading some of the posts about it, and rewatching it, I have to admit, it does have a comic bookish tone to it.

I don't get the the Pah Wraith's motives; they just want to 'conquer the alpha quadrant' too bit? To be these powerful beings, you'd think they'd be totally uninterested in this.

They really don't give a clear motive, other than setting the entire alpha quadrant in flames thing. Even the reason they were "cast out' by the Prophets were vague;

Nog said according to Bajoran texts, they were simply 'false prophets', nothing more complex than that..

Now, if they did something mean like, betray and destroy Gul Dukat after he decided to help Sisko, and ressurect and chose Kai Winn as their Emissary, and then Sisko pushes her off the ledge, that would be a pretty odd but interesing ending..

 

[SoM]

Right...if he could only hold his shape for 18 hours, then considering that it can take longer periods of time to travel between stars/systems, what did he do if he had to revert in the middle of space?

Even Odo was breaking that "rule" in the later series - in Crossfire, after a long day, he stands guard outside Kira's quarters all night, and then goes up and wrecks his room (where Quark finds him, still solid). Something similar happens later in You Are Cordially Invited, where Odo goes straight from being on-duty to the infamous "talk in Dax's closet" with Kira, and then dashes straight back on-duty when Dax finds them still talking at 1030hrs (as does Kira).

Infants need more sleep than adults. And Odo's still an infant by changeling standards. How could the "adults" possibly infiltrate a community of solids if they start falling apart after a mere 20 hours?

 

[Nightdiamond]

Right...if he could only hold his shape for 18 hours, then considering that it can take longer periods of time to travel between stars/systems, what did he do if he had to revert in the middle of space?

Even Odo was breaking that "rule" in the later series - in Crossfire, after a long day, he stands guard outside Kira's quarters all night, and then goes up and wrecks his room (where Quark finds him, still solid). Something similar happens later in You Are Cordially Invited, where Odo goes straight from being on-duty to the infamous "talk in Dax's closet" with Kira, and then dashes straight back on-duty when Dax finds them still talking at 1030hrs (as does Kira).

Infants need more sleep than adults. And Odo's still an infant by changeling standards. How could the "adults" possibly infiltrate a community of solids if they start falling apart after a mere 20 hours?

Good catch, that's a genuine Nit ...

 

[Tosk]

But SoM also provided a perfectly reasonable explanation for it, so is it really a nit?

The weirdest one of all was when he changed into some semi tangible form and floated around Kira. In fact that was the same episode as when he met Laas, but yet he was amazed at Laas abilities......

Odo has his eyes opened (metaphorically) to the possibilities of his shapeshifting abilities in the ep. After seeing Laas do all sorts of 'amazing' shapeshifts, Odo realises he can too...and does so for Nerys.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Just how OLD is Dukat? In Wrongs Darker Than Death OR Night, we see that Dukat had an affair with Kira's mother.

Kira is definitely in her 30's when she discovers what happened. She was 3 when the incident happened. That's at least a good 30 years between what happened then and when Kira becomes the first officer to DS9.

Dukat looks like he's at least in his 30's when this happens. Dukat has to be at least 60 years old by the time of the present.

And yet age-wise he looks about the same age as either Sisko, Kira, or Garak.

It's hard to believe that someone in their 20's could be made a commander of an entire fleet (Order) and Prefect of a planet.

If he was the commander of an order and Prefect of Bajor, then I think he had to have been at least in his mid 30's when this happened.

Enabran Tain was older, and you could see the slower movements, the grey hair. The same with Kira's father; There were other Cardassian who aslo appeared from the same time period, with grey hair, older features.



Dukat looks like he hasn't aged a day!

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I've personally got the Cardassian lifespan pegged at 150-200 years. That's just for my fanfic, but I think it could account for it. Hell, in my fanfic, Gul Macet was approaching 70 in "The Wounded" (and, of course, still isn't even showing a single grey hair). Enabran Tain, I would personally peg him at anywhere between 120-150 years. (I think he died "young" for a Cardassian, though, so I'd go more for the 120-130 range if I were writing it.)

 

[Nightdiamond]

Let's say Dukat is at least 33 years old minimum at the time. Then add another 31 years, that puts Dukat close to 65 years old.!

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Which becomes plausible if you're looking at a lifespan like what I am suggesting. Otherwise it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense. Incidentally I had Dukat figured to be in his 60s myself. Still young by Cardassian standards.

That said--if you look very closely at his makeup in "Wrongs Darker than Death and Night," comparing the "current day" and "past" shots, he actually DOES subtly appear younger. If you REAAAAAALLY want me to, I can do a pic comparison and show exactly how Cardassians show their age and Dukat in particular...

 

[Nightdiamond]

Which becomes plausible if you're looking at a lifespan like what I am suggesting. Otherwise it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense. Incidentally I had Dukat figured to be in his 60s myself. Still young by Cardassian standards.

That said--if you look very closely at his makeup in "Wrongs Darker than Death and Night," comparing the "current day" and "past" shots, he actually DOES subtly appear younger. If you REAAAAAALLY want me to, I can do a pic comparison and show exactly how Cardassians show their age and Dukat in particular...

Yes, yes! I need facts!, lol.


In Second Skin, even the man posing as Kira's father has wrinkles, grey hair, 'older' features. Kira's real father had the grey hair in one scene, and it was years ago.

Garak's nanny has grey hair, wrinkles.

I wonder if show has ever mentioned the life span of Cardassians, because this is a weird one.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I do not believe the show ever mentioned Cardassian lifespan, but I've always worked under the assumption that Cardassians are longer-lived than humans--that the lifespan might be below Klingon or Vulcan range, but that they still outlive 24th-century humans quite easily.

OK...lemme dig up the screencaps I was using. I actually spotted this during an avatar contest.

I WILL tell you that Cardassians show age quite subtly until they get older (like, say, about Tekeny Ghemor's age), so it's probably hard to notice until you get still screenshots. Onscreen, during the episode, I can totally understand why you and just about everybody else missed it.

Here's Dukat from the beginning of the episode. This is his standard appearance at "present time" in the series.

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/6x17/deathornight_071.jpg

For a youngish-to-middle-aged Cardassian (and in his late 60s to possibly 70 years old, Dukat would still be youngish by my personal reckoning), you'll notice that the forehead is not perfectly smooth, and that the ridges are starting to become more prominent, but not in the way that you would see with, say, Tekeny Ghemor or Mila.

But here's where I noticed a real change. Here's our young Dukat for comparison:

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/6x17/deathornight_343.jpg

I'm not sure what it is about the Cardassian aging process that does this, but you'll notice that his eye and neck ridges don't seem quite as...prominent. The forehead also seems a bit smoother. There are still a few wrinkles, but I think a little of that is due to the fact that the actor being used was closer to the equivalent of "present-day" Dukat's age and there was only so much they could do to make him look younger. However, there IS a noticeable change in the makeup used for the young Dukat, so I personally contend that he WAS aged backwards, but that Cardassians simply do not show a lot of changes due to age until they reach, perhaps, 80-100 years of age.

It's particularly compelling evidence considering that these screencaps came from the same episode.