Drop the S31 show for a Captain Pike show?

[Longinus]

Discovery could have worked fine with their original characters, if the writing had not been so atrociously bad. Lorca could have been the eventual villain, but in a sad and realistic way. A man broken by the war goes too far. And then on the second season they could have brought back the original Georgiou, released from the Klingon prison camp. She would have played the role of a wise experienced captain that Pike had on the second season.

 

[fireproof78]

Discovery could have worked fine with their original characters, if the writing had not been so atrociously bad. Lorca could have been the eventual villain, but in a sad and realistic way. A man broken by the war goes too far. And then on the second season they could have brought back the original Georgiou, released from the Klingon prison camp. She would have played the role of a wise experienced captain that Pike had on the second season.

That would be an amazing show. I would love to see Lorca as that character, and Georgiou return. I completely agree regarding the original characters. The connections to Spock were unnecessary.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I think the irony is "Reality is Unrealistic." People are saying that they'd never make use of a Roman Emperor psychopath as an agent. The thing is that intelligence agencies have historically made use of dictators, war criminals, and terrible people of all stripes. Just, you know, dictators are rarely the agents but Captains rarely punch reptile men either.

Section 31 needs deniable assets to do things that people would never attribute to Starfleet because their whole purpose is that they are black ops. You know, things people WON'T trace to the Federation. The Empress is completely expendable and perfectly capable. She has no one to rely on in Federation society and is utterly dependent on them while perfectly ruthless/capable of being used.

 

[Cake]

I'm definitely looking forward to the Section 31 show and Michelle Yeoh as the star of it. I say this as someone who thinks Section 31 is absolutely a villain of the Star Trek universe the same way the Romulans, Klingons, and Cardassians are. They're an ideological foe of the Federation's values the same way that the typical "Evil Admiral" plot is.

I also am not particularly concerned about the fact that Michelle Yeoh's Empress is the star because she's evil. The show never makes a pretense that she's not evil. Yes, they're portraying her as funny in an appalling way. She's basically Spike from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Entertaining? Yes. Evil? Yes.

I'm going to watch it because it's fun.

I'd also love a Klingon (original recipe) show because I love Game of Thrones meets Star Trek. I wouldn't watch it because blood drinking berserkers are fun role models.

I think they have already stopped to portray Georgiou as truly evil in season 2 of DIS. Her "redemption arc" felt fake like hell, but at the end of the season they had already turned her into a snarky, but overall good and helpful comrade of the other DIS characters.

 

[fireproof78]

I think they have already stopped to portray Georgiou as truly evil in season 2 of DIS. Her "redemption arc" felt fake like hell, but at the end of the season they had already turned her into a snarky, but overall good and helpful comrade of the other DIS characters.

That makes her useful-that doesn't make her good.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I think they have already stopped to portray Georgiou as truly evil in season 2 of DIS. Her "redemption arc" felt fake like hell, but at the end of the season they had already turned her into a snarky, but overall good and helpful comrade of the other DIS characters.

Well in real life, evil people don't usually randomly murder their friends. Georgiou is on Team Federation because she's a human supremacist and it benefits her.

Also, I suspect S31 is the only place she feels things remotely make sense.

 

[Blooded]

I must say, I don’t entirely understand why anyone would want to ditch a very different [in concept] Trek show, and replace it with a show that would be exactly what we got from TOS, TNG, VOY and ENT; a ship exploring space.

Pike was fantastic. The ship was beautiful. But to ditch a show that will offer Trek perhaps it’s most different series premise to date and, by default, most different SHOW to date, for more of the same? No thanks. Jesus, I remember being on here when people were slating VOY and ENT whilst they aired for allegedly not bringing anything new to the table. Now, 20 years later, that’s what people are asking for, just with better production values!

Give Pike and the Enterprise their own run of CBSAA movies, or mini-series, definitely. But ditch a S31 show for a weekly Pike series? No, that’s no good for the future of this franchise.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I must say, I don’t entirely understand why anyone would want to ditch a very different [in concept] Trek show, and replace it with a show that would be exactly what we got from TOS, TNG, VOY and ENT; a ship exploring space.

Pike was fantastic. The ship was beautiful. But to ditch a show that will offer Trek perhaps it’s most different series premise to date and, by default, most different SHOW to date, for more of the same? No thanks. Jesus, I remember being on here when people were slating VOY and ENT whilst they aired for allegedly not bringing anything new to the table. Now, 20 years later, that’s what people are asking for, just with better production values!

Give Pike and the Enterprise their own run of CBSAA movies, or mini-series, definitely. But ditch a S31 show for a weekly Pike series? No, that’s no good for the future of this franchise.

While I'm all for S31, I'm going to say that it's been 15 years since the doors were shut on Enterprise. As a hiatus goes, that's a perfectly serviceable time to want to get back to "classic" Star Trek. Discovery is a fine show but it's hardly an optimistic story about human discovery, it's easily the most intensely dark Star Trek with everyone carrying a huge amount of baggage--well exceeding DS9.

I also point out that maybe it's a justifiable worry that they want to do a show about a villain faction.

AND ITS NOT THE KLINGONS.

 

[Prax]

I must say, I don’t entirely understand why anyone would want to ditch a very different [in concept] Trek show, and replace it with a show that would be exactly what we got from TOS, TNG, VOY and ENT; a ship exploring space.

No one has suggested any such thing

 

[Blooded]

No one has suggested any such thing

It’s literally the title of this thread. And it’s also the option quite comfortably winning the poll.

 

[Cake]

Well in real life, evil people don't usually randomly murder their friends. Georgiou is on Team Federation because she's a human supremacist and it benefits her.

Also, I suspect S31 is the only place she feels things remotely make sense.

She is also on the Federation side, because for some weird reasons Georgiou really likes Burnham. It doesn't really make sense as she seems to have otherwise no problem to differentiate people from her universe with their counter parts in the other universe. And her real daughter even betrayed her, so it is not like prime universe Burnham reminds her of only of good things. And prime universe Burnham also treated her understandably like shit very often which makes it even more weird that Georgiou likes her so much. Her feelings for Burnham were the main reason for her redemption arc. It might not be complete yet, but they clearly didn't portray her as evil anymore as in season 1.

Just read what Michelle Yeoh is saying:

https://trekmovie.com/2019/04/17/mi...-show-will-be-more-fun-with-a-nicer-georgiou/
https://www.trektoday.com/content/2019/04/yeoh-section-31s-georgiou-will-be-kinder/

Season 1 Georgiou very likely wouldn't have bothered rescuing people. And there was not much of a "nicer, gentler side".

https://trekmovie.com/2019/01/17/sh...1-series-will-not-abandon-star-trek-optimism/

The showrunners has also said that Section 31 won't abandon the Star Trek optimism, so clearly they don't plan to let Georgiou go around and kill innocent people like she has done tons of times in the mirror universe.

Personally I think this whole redemption arc is unbelievable the way they have handled it so far, but TPTB and also Yeoh clearly believe that Georgiou has changed already in season 2 of DIS and isn't quite as evil anymore.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Star Trek is a bit like Star Wars in that if you don't want horrible evil monsters to be redeemed then you are in the wrong franchise. Star Trek is all about making peace with enemies and monsters, regardless of whether it's just.

In the case of Georgiou I don't think they'll redeem her.

But she'll be on the Federation's side.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TokenEvilTeammate

I think it's helped to be believable because Georgiou isn't a idealogue. She was in it for herself.

 

[The Wormhole]

I think they have already stopped to portray Georgiou as truly evil in season 2 of DIS. Her "redemption arc" felt fake like hell, but at the end of the season they had already turned her into a snarky, but overall good and helpful comrade of the other DIS characters.

Yeah, I don't really see Georgiou as a good guy or redeemed. She is an ally who is helping the good guys achieve goals which are mutually beneficial to her. I'll admit, they have started her off on the slippery slope in which the audience will gradually confuse a bad guy as a good guy, or the Token Evil Teammate as mentioned above. After all, in the finale when options were being discussed, it was her idea to trigger a supernova at the expense of billions of innocent lives to achieve their goals.

 

[Gonzo]

Taking Georgiou away from the do it to them before they do it to you environment (MU) that made her that way probably helped a lot with the change.

No surprise she has adjusted somewhat, I dont see it as redemption at all, she acted the way she did because that was how you survived, got to the top and most importantly stayed there.

Its very much an ingrained culture in the MU and perfectly normal for them, many a discussion has been had on various boards about what caused such a culture and way of life to come to be in the first place, could be an early Borg incursion or an encounter with another race that taught Starfleet/Humanity a very harsh lesson early on.

Georgiou doesnt have to be that way to such an extent in the PU and she has changed her approach accordingly.

No doubt she is more relaxed as she doesnt have to be looking over her shoulder all the time.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I think of her as sticking by Section 31 because it's a bunch of incredibly ruthless pragmatists and black ops commandos that are willing to do terrible things in order to guarantee the Federation's security. It's not nearly as ruthless as the Terran Empire and actually values different things but is a bit like being a Dark Side Trooper or Jedi in The Old Republic MMORPG. You aren't joining the Sith Empire but will do terrible things to protect "your" side.

So it's something familiar to her in a way the rest of the Federation isn't.

And she is playing politics "Terran style" by blackmailing Leland and trying to sabotage his efforts. She figures she can work her way up to being head of S31. Which is wrong as they prefer the Klingon-human hybrid to her.

Re: The Mirror Universe

A lot of people talk about how the Mirror Universe is incredibly unrealistic and debased but the simple fact is that it's pretty much just humans as Klingons. Unrealistic? Yes, but not for Star Trek. The thing is that racism, infighting, assassination, and conquest are nothing new for fascist states.

 

[fireproof78]

Star Trek is a bit like Star Wars in that if you don't want horrible evil monsters to be redeemed then you are in the wrong franchise. Star Trek is all about making peace with enemies and monsters, regardless of whether it's just.

In the case of Georgiou I don't think they'll redeem her.

But she'll be on the Federation's side.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TokenEvilTeammate

I think it's helped to be believable because Georgiou isn't a idealogue. She was in it for herself.

Why do you think she joined Section 31? It is her way of accessing power in a strange new world.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Why do you think she joined Section 31? It is her way of accessing power in a strange new world.

I think it was the comfort of something familiar with also the fact it was hiring. I get the impression Georgiou wasn't entirely happy as Empress and enjoyed being in the "field" more. So, it's as good a job as she's going to get.

 

[fireproof78]

I think it was the comfort of something familiar with also the fact it was hiring. I get the impression Georgiou wasn't entirely happy as Empress and enjoyed being in the "field" more. So, it's as good a job as she's going to get.

That may also be true.

 

[Mudd]

Unrealistic? Yes, but not for Star Trek..

Well now, there's a low bar to clear.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Well now, there's a low bar to clear.

I accept a certain level of heightened reality in a show about punching gods and bat'leths.