Don't want the S31 show, but I do want more Georgiou.
Drop the S31 show for a Captain Pike show?
- Thread starter Tom
- Start date
So, you're not at all concerned that the attitude the writing team has towards the character will affect how they write the character? If not, can you at least understand how and why other people might be?
The writers of Trek have always had biases. For a long while they were all about the main cast be always proven morally superior to whoever they ran across. That kind of arrogant posturing got a bit tiring after a while because it assumes that the viewer needs to be instructed on the right way to think. I'm sure they will eventually get back to that kind of writing for the next series that's written for the kiddies. I'm however, mature enough to be able to tell what's going on and make my own moral judgments without being instructed by the show I'm watching.
Thank God, then, that us immature fools have you here barking instructions on the show's behalf.
True, Hitler didn't eat sentient beings.
THANK. YOU.
Funnily enough - this seems to be a recuring theme from Kurtzman. And one that in fact has quite an appeal to it: Let the devil work for us. And I can totally see why he likes to use it as a form of political allegory, even if it isn't really applicable the way it is written.
But that was actually the one, good original idea in "Into Darkness" - blackmailing Khan to use him as an operative for Section 31.
The problem with Georgiou is - in "Into Darkness" both the writers and the characters were the whole time fully aware that Khan wasn't actually a good guy. And he never got the keys to a monstrous surveillence and operations apparature. He was used as an especially effective field guy. A situation that was morally completely wrong - but also very interesting in a complex, muddy, realistic way.
Fact of the matter is - if that would have been the angle they were going for in their Section 31 show - it would actually appeal to me. Not necessary in a "Star Trek"-way. But in a "James Bond"-way. I love spy fiction. The problem at hand is that they are writing Georgiou is a reformed villain-hero since the season started, chock-full with all the Anime-tropes and clichés. And that's just a fundamentally wrong approach to a character with this backstory.
Here is the thing: I LOVE grey characters! I would watch the hell out of a MARVEL Bucka Barnes/Winter Soldier-show. And this is the guy that killed Tony Stark's parents! But that is a "grey" character done well. Georgiou is a cartoonishly black character, suddendly turned cartoonishly white, with a big dose of "cool"/snark-factor.
But that was actually the one, good original idea in "Into Darkness" - blackmailing Khan to use him as an operative for Section 31.
The problem with Georgiou is - in "Into Darkness" both the writers and the characters were the whole time fully aware that Khan wasn't actually a good guy. And he never got the keys to a monstrous surveillence and operations apparature. He was used as an especially effective field guy. A situation that was morally completely wrong - but also very interesting in a complex, muddy, realistic way.
Fact of the matter is - if that would have been the angle they were going for in their Section 31 show - it would actually appeal to me. Not necessary in a "Star Trek"-way. But in a "James Bond"-way. I love spy fiction. The problem at hand is that they are writing Georgiou is a reformed villain-hero since the season started, chock-full with all the Anime-tropes and clichés. And that's just a fundamentally wrong approach to a character with this backstory.
Here is the thing: I LOVE grey characters! I would watch the hell out of a MARVEL Bucka Barnes/Winter Soldier-show. And this is the guy that killed Tony Stark's parents! But that is a "grey" character done well. Georgiou is a cartoonishly black character, suddendly turned cartoonishly white, with a big dose of "cool"/snark-factor.
My word, all this hand wringing about morality and context and what not. Here's how I see the situation: Mirror Georgiou is an entertaining character played perfectly by Michelle Yeoh. For this reason alone, I enjoy the character and look forward to her spin-off, anticipating that I will like it. Whether or not she's Space Hitler or Space Stalin or Space Whoever, what that means for the franchise, and whether this is better or worse than liking Gul Dukat or Garak or whoever is besides the point and a literal non-issue for me.
But continue your debate. I get it, there are no new episodes, we need something to entertain ourselves until the Picard Show premieres.
But continue your debate. I get it, there are no new episodes, we need something to entertain ourselves until the Picard Show premieres.
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I can understand some of the worries, but no, I don't have a concern about the writer's attitudes. Largely because my worrying over it will not change their approach.
As I said in many posts if there is that much concern over this approach by the writers then petitions, letters, emails, and the like are all appropriate courses of action.
So all of this is about how we think the Section 31 show will be? Well, I'll say what I think. I think setting up Tyler as being in charge of Section 31 at the end up "Such Sweet Sorrow, Part II" was meant to establish he'd be the Head of it in the new series.
I don't think Georgiou will ever be fully a "good guy". And as far as the Federation is concerned, she's dead. "Captain" Phillipa Georgiou, as they were passing her off as, "died". So she's completely undercover, completely secret, doing whatever Tyler needs her to do. I've only seen Into Darkness once ever, on opening weekend, so my memory's rusty since it's been six years, but Tyler would have the same use for Georgiou as Section 31 had for Khan in that movie.
And if she's not a "good guy", guess what? It's not the first time I've ever watched a TV show that wasn't about a good guy. Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul, Orange Is the New Black, Oz. They're all shows I watched -- or currently watch -- and they all have main characters who aren't goody two-shoes.
The Section 31 Series is not supposed to be a normal Star Trek series. Since, to some of you "It's not Star Trek!", then no need to watch. Or if "I'd like it but not in a Star Trek way!" Then great. Don't think of it as Star Trek. Think of it as Mission: Impossible, or I, Spy, or whatever the Hell you want to think of it as. Pretend it's not Star Trek. And just watch it as if it were something else if you're going to.
The show will either last or it won't. If it doesn't, they won't do it again. If it does last, they'll branch out to do other different stuff. Maybe you'll like one of those.
I don't think Georgiou will ever be fully a "good guy". And as far as the Federation is concerned, she's dead. "Captain" Phillipa Georgiou, as they were passing her off as, "died". So she's completely undercover, completely secret, doing whatever Tyler needs her to do. I've only seen Into Darkness once ever, on opening weekend, so my memory's rusty since it's been six years, but Tyler would have the same use for Georgiou as Section 31 had for Khan in that movie.
And if she's not a "good guy", guess what? It's not the first time I've ever watched a TV show that wasn't about a good guy. Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul, Orange Is the New Black, Oz. They're all shows I watched -- or currently watch -- and they all have main characters who aren't goody two-shoes.
The Section 31 Series is not supposed to be a normal Star Trek series. Since, to some of you "It's not Star Trek!", then no need to watch. Or if "I'd like it but not in a Star Trek way!" Then great. Don't think of it as Star Trek. Think of it as Mission: Impossible, or I, Spy, or whatever the Hell you want to think of it as. Pretend it's not Star Trek. And just watch it as if it were something else if you're going to.
The show will either last or it won't. If it doesn't, they won't do it again. If it does last, they'll branch out to do other different stuff. Maybe you'll like one of those.
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Because a Pike show would blow a Section 31 show out of the water. I think they jumped the gun on trying to get several Trek shows going and didn't realize how popular Pike and the Enterprise was going to be.
International appeal.
Just another show about the Enterprise is something they've seen or heard of three times already (TOS, TNG, and ENT). And Captain Pike might as well be Captain Kirk, as far as John Q Public is concerned, either here or overseas. It's just more of the same. *
If they promote the Section 31 Series as a Michelle Yeoh vehicle, for the international market, then they'll view it as a Yeoh Series first and as a Star Trek series a distant second. You'll get people to watch a Trek Series who might've never bothered with one, including a Pike Series.
* Though I get it. Every other decade, we "need" a new show with the Enterprise. In the '60s it was TOS, in the '80s it was TNG, in the '00s it was ENT, and now we're coming up on the '20s... so cue new show with The Enterprise.
Just to make clear, I like Pike, Spock, and Number One. I really do. I just think there's room for both series and, yes, they'd appeal to different markets.
Sorry, but we're all posting on a Star Trek message board, so the "you nerds need to get a life" argument is weak sauce. They issue your nerd card with your screen name.
If we didn't care too deeply about Star Trek, none of us would be here, so let's not try to play the cool kid.
If we didn't care too deeply about Star Trek, none of us would be here, so let's not try to play the cool kid.
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That's fairly likely. The whole Pike thing seems to have taken them by surprise.
I never thought I'd say this, but some of you might want to stay clear of Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure.
Do Bill and Ted make Hitler the head of the CIA?
Do you know how to take a joke? Don't answer that.
Well, yeah. Was simply making one of my own, since I've seen the movie many moons ago.
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