Downton Abbey ITV1 22nd September 9pm
- Thread starter Captain Shaw
- Start date
Sttngfan, I understand that you didn't consciously "mean anything."
However, you and Yoda had already mentioned that only the last part of the episode was problematic. And I had considered that before concluding that I'm not going to watch it at all. So when you brought it up again after I made my decision, you were repeating yourself and using language ("I don't think you have to skip the whole thing...") that said you thought you knew better than I what it is that I need.
We all have fun here arguing back and forth about the pros and cons of all sorts of things. But when someone asks for some simple info on a very traumatic topic (which you did just fine, the first time), that is not the time to keep pressing your point.
However, you and Yoda had already mentioned that only the last part of the episode was problematic. And I had considered that before concluding that I'm not going to watch it at all. So when you brought it up again after I made my decision, you were repeating yourself and using language ("I don't think you have to skip the whole thing...") that said you thought you knew better than I what it is that I need.
We all have fun here arguing back and forth about the pros and cons of all sorts of things. But when someone asks for some simple info on a very traumatic topic (which you did just fine, the first time), that is not the time to keep pressing your point.
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People on tumblr are also saying that Mary was raped back in series one when she slept with the Turkish man.
Did I miss judge the scene because I did not see it has rape?
Did I miss judge the scene because I did not see it has rape?
It was marketed as seduction and a lot of people called it that. The only person I've discussed it with before felt it was kind of borderline. IMO, she said "no" way too clearly for it to be seduction. She said no when he kissed her in the hallway; she said no when he showed up in her room; she said no repeatedly when he got in her bed. And she gave off no mixed vibes to confuse him (I was really looking for that; I wanted it to be seduction). Yes, she did eventually enjoy it, but that's irrelevant. I'm glad to hear other people are calling it rape, too.
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That scene in season 1 was borderline, yes. The problem is that you have this view in society (which IS partly perpetuated by women who admit this) that sometimes women say "no" despite still physically *wanting* it. Women who want to be "taken" by a man, who aren't sure at first but give in to the passion. I always roll my eyes when I hear a woman say that stuff because it muddies the waters. I've had too many friends and loved ones raped that I think the "no that's really a yes in disguise" thing gives men license to push the boundaries. That scene reminded me of the scene in the first Rocky film. That's never sat well with me, either.
The whole thing was amazing well done by the actors, but completely uncomfortable to watch. I found the decision to put the scene where they did made it very powerful, but it made the enjoyment of everything else impossible in the show. It makes the scene singularly striking, but so much so that it makes the rest seem very inconsequential. I couldn't watch it again.
With the stigma and guilt society can, and did at the time, impose on women who've been raped, I don't know how much I want to follow this. Done well, this could get far more maddening and uncomfortable, and done poorly or in a shallow fashion will have a whole other poor reception. I didn't expect this, well done by all the actors, but I am conflicted about following this.
I read that the scene had a lot of lines cut that would have made it a lot clearer
Fellowes said he was not happy with how that scene turned out due to all the cuts so maybe that's why people find it confusing.
Interesting. But clearer in which direction? Was his intention rape or seduction?
Well, at first he made advances though they were already accompanied by gestures of dominance like blocking Anna's way. When she made it clear that she wasn't interested and was happy with Mr. Bates he became violent.
Yes, that's true. The rest of the opera singer's scene was almost unbearable to watch. And when all those cosy things like Cora and Robert having their chat in their nice bedroom happened I wanted to scream at the screen, "But what about Anna?"
It's a very heavy storyline for a show like Downton. I hope they'll handle it well but it will be quite unpleasant to watch. Anna will suffer from this for a long time, especially since Mr. Green, the rapist, will in all likelihood show up in the house again, being the valet of Mary's new suitor.
The show has been anachronistic before so other characters might be more sympathetic to her and more sensitive than they would have been in reality but still. I would have preferred the usual, less realistic drama from before, to be honest.
Also, it would have been nice if Anna and Mr. Bates could just have been happy (with just the minor problems people have in marriages) after all the drama they already went through.
Yes, that's true. The rest of the opera singer's scene was almost unbearable to watch. And when all those cosy things like Cora and Robert having their chat in their nice bedroom happened I wanted to scream at the screen, "But what about Anna?"
It's a very heavy storyline for a show like Downton. I hope they'll handle it well but it will be quite unpleasant to watch. Anna will suffer from this for a long time, especially since Mr. Green, the rapist, will in all likelihood show up in the house again, being the valet of Mary's new suitor.
The show has been anachronistic before so other characters might be more sympathetic to her and more sensitive than they would have been in reality but still. I would have preferred the usual, less realistic drama from before, to be honest.
Also, it would have been nice if Anna and Mr. Bates could just have been happy (with just the minor problems people have in marriages) after all the drama they already went through.
^ Yeah, they're getting way more than their fair share of trouble. 
Given that some/most of the characters were supportive of Mr. Bates when he was convicted of murder, it's possible that someone will support Anna (if she ever gives them the opportunity). Anachronistic, but realistic in-universe.
BTW, if your first paragraph was responding to Serial thread killer and me, we were actually talking about Kemal Pamuk.
Given that some/most of the characters were supportive of Mr. Bates when he was convicted of murder, it's possible that someone will support Anna (if she ever gives them the opportunity). Anachronistic, but realistic in-universe.
BTW, if your first paragraph was responding to Serial thread killer and me, we were actually talking about Kemal Pamuk.
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Seduction.
I can't find the interview now I'm afraid. But did you know its based on a true story?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...cal-model-for-Downton-Abbeys-sex-scandal.html
Yeah, I found that out while I, too, was trying to find the interview. Thanks for looking for it!
I usually couldn't care less about deleted scenes and stuff, but I'd really like to see an extended version of that one someday, to see how "no" was intended to transition into a genuine "yes."
I usually couldn't care less about deleted scenes and stuff, but I'd really like to see an extended version of that one someday, to see how "no" was intended to transition into a genuine "yes."
People are now also saying that Edna has raped Tom, I must admit I can't stand Edna so I tuned out at her scenes.
Not a problem. 
ETA: Oops! That was obviously to Count Zero!
ETA: Oops! That was obviously to Count Zero!
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Really? Mmh, it looked quite consensual to me at the time but I admit that I'm a bit hazy on the details now.
Edna came out and gave Tom a drink. First thing I thought of was that it was drugged and then when she went into his room, that confirmed it for me. She looks to stop at nothing to be with him.
In the UK its on Netflix can you fool netflix into thinking your in the UK?
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