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Donny's Refit Enterprise Interiors (Version 2.0)

Ah, "Atomic Rockets", THE "go to" site if one has questions about presenting realistic space travel in otherwise fictional settings. I won't be so bold as to claim we're best buds, but "Nyrath the Nearly Wise" and I have been casual acquaintances for well past a decade, maybe closer to 15 years. He was kind enough to let me convert his 1953 WotW war machine and share the .OBJ and Poser formatted versions with the 3D community. A real swell guy!
 
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Oh yes, Winchell is a super curious but refined example of the science fiction fan, and we are all the better for it.

Jefferies put what he presumably intended to be heat exchangers, intercoolers, vents, and radiators, all over those pylons and nacelles. So I agree he had the problem of the heat those reactors would produce very much in mind. I do however, think some small allowance can be made for the fact that a civilization that can build such a ship, and bend space and time, can finesse the problem of waste heat. Whether it is recycled, dumped into subspace, or something else, there is an explanation no more far fetched than the warp drive itself that would accommodate a smallish in-hull reactor. But I do think a proper understanding of Jefferies’ intent would have huge M/AM reactors and fuel stores in the nacelles, but also some kind of reactor and fuel stores in hull. The only indication in my mind that Jefferies originally intended the main engineering set to be in the saucer in fact deals with Christopher’s objection- not only does his set have a curved corridor outside it, but the impulse engine is where he put some kind of radiator on top. No such assembly is on the engineering hull. I suspect it may gave been intended to be an ambiguous, duplicated space that could fill in for impulse and warp engineering. But if so, why didn’t he put a radiator of some kind down there?

Of course, on his presentation drawing of the ship, he DID.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/85/4b/22/854b22e3f9fb812b76637d4ef1ef19b8.jpg
 
not only does his set have a curved corridor outside it
In the absence of any behind-the-scenes information to indicate otherwise (and, although I know of no such information myself, I am completely open to the possibility that it might exist), I am not personally inclined to give this fact any weight in determining where in the ship the engine room set was supposed to be located, because my default view is that the set was intended to be representative of typical interiors of the starship and not necessarily a precise representation of any particular section. For example, we aren't supposed to assume that the engine room is just down the corridor from James Kirk's quarters, even though that's where it is on the set. So, why should we assume that the corridor outside the engine room is curved the same way the corridor is curved around the crew quarters? In other words, my default view is that the set is a kind of "very lossy compressed" representation of the starship interior.
 
FWIW, the US Navy uses a two-loop system for its reactors. The reactor produces heat that raises the temp of the pressurized water in the first loop, which in turn is used to heat the water in the second loop to steam. That steam is then used to drive turbines to produce propulsion and electricity. The steam is then condensed back to liquid (using sea water) before returning to be converted to steam again. The majority of the waste heat of this system is removed from the system by the condenser of the second loop, passing overboard with the sea water.

I point this out because where you put your reactor would depend on where in the system you need to remove the excessive heat. The condensers that remove the waste heat on Navy ships are not in the same space as the reactors. Also, the reactors are not in the same space as the engines (or the people controlling the reactors, for that matter.)
 
I do however, think some small allowance can be made for the fact that a civilization that can build such a ship, and bend space and time, can finesse the problem of waste heat.

Still, I'd rather see science fiction that actually acknowledges physics and designs the tech with it in mind, rather than just doing fanciful stuff and saying "Don't worry, a science wizard did it." That's what made Jefferies's designs so great -- they looked practical and plausible.

Besides, as they talk about on Atomic Rockets, waste heat is not a casual problem to "finesse." Even the most advanced technology can't ignore the laws of physics, but must work within their limits. And the laws of thermodynamics are pretty non-negotiable. Sooner or later, energy will end up as heat and that heat has to be dealt with. That's something even super-advanced technologies can't ignore. (In Niven's Known Space, as revealed in the more recent novels he co-wrote with Edward M. Lerner, the reason the Pierson's puppeteers' home planets don't have a star is because they're so heavily populated and urbanized that their own waste heat keeps them livable and they need to be in deep space away from stars to keep from overheating. That's an incredibly advanced technology, but it's still bound by thermodynamics.)


But I do think a proper understanding of Jefferies’ intent would have huge M/AM reactors and fuel stores in the nacelles, but also some kind of reactor and fuel stores in hull.

"In hull" is one thing, but right in the middle of an occupied room is another. It would be more plausible if it were in a separate compartment shielded off from the pressurized, inhabited sections of the ship.

After all, Trek-universe engines are disturbingly prone to explosions. So it seems like a good idea to keep them in separate compartments that are easy to jettison. And that's another advantage of keeping vacuum between them and the crew, because atmosphere propagates and amplifies blast effects enormously. A nuclear or antimatter explosion in atmosphere causes immensely more damage than one in vacuum, due to the superheating and expansion of the atmosphere itself.

I mean, really, there's no reason why every interior volume in a spacecraft needs to be pressurized. In Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda, which in its early seasons (before staff changes and retools dumbed it down) was the hardest hard-SF show prior to The Expanse, it was a standard battle tactic to vent atmosphere from most of the ship's volume so that there wouldn't be any blast effects from relativistic projectiles penetrating the hull (since they had no shields).


The only indication in my mind that Jefferies originally intended the main engineering set to be in the saucer in fact deals with Christopher’s objection- not only does his set have a curved corridor outside it, but the impulse engine is where he put some kind of radiator on top.

Well, the engineering set was at one end of a short straight corridor that ran perpendicular to the curved corridor. Whether its connection to a curved corridor is visible depends on how the director sets up the shots. So it could've been that the intent was that it was in the secondary hull, but not all directors bothered to keep that in mind. Sort of like how you could sometimes see the edge of Spock's station even though it was supposed to be flush with the adjacent station. Or how some TNG and DS9 directors didn't bother to hide the fact that there was a flat forced-perspective painting on the wall behind the actors rather than an actual corridor or Jefferies tube segment. There's a difference between what the camerawork betrays about the real-life set design and what it's meant to represent within the fiction.

Anyway, forced perspective is why I don't buy Franz Joseph's placement of the engine room in the saucer -- because the "pipe cathedral" section was clearly meant to be a forced-perspective piece representing a longer tunnel with parallel edges (like the TMP horizontal shaft), but FJ took it literally as a short tapering section, wasting the whole illusion. I'm fairly certain the intention was that the "cathedral" was supposed to be a glimpse back along the length of the secondary hull.


I suspect it may gave been intended to be an ambiguous, duplicated space that could fill in for impulse and warp engineering.

That's a possibility, though it's hard to reconcile with my take on the "cathedral." But in the first season, they did go through a variety of different configurations of the set, and you couldn't always get a clear sense of its overall layout.

Still, they did generally refer to engineering as "the lower levels" or the like.
 
Still, I'd rather see science fiction that actually acknowledges physics and designs the tech with it in mind, rather than just doing fanciful stuff and saying "Don't worry, a science wizard did it." That's what made Jefferies's designs so great -- they looked practical and plausible.

Besides, as they talk about on Atomic Rockets, waste heat is not a casual problem to "finesse."

Perhaps I was being too offhand and unspecific. I don’t mean to suggest the problem of heat dissipation should be disregarded with magic technology. I mean to say the same technology that could build that starship should be able to dissipate its heat via the hull or the grid. Maybe that’s why it glows wherever it goes as if it were orbiting a star. Maybe it banks heat energy to dissipate in directed energy weapons or torpedoes. The heat has to be dissipated. It’s the engineering of the problem that is at issue.

I also would never defend the way TMP finally showed that in hull reactor. I think it was a profound misunderstanding of the big graduated cylinder shown in TAS and what Jefferies showed in his internal section view of the Phase II Enterprise refit. That misunderstanding can probably be attributed to Mike Minor, who IIRC designed the new engineering space based on Jefferies depiction of a several story space below the pylon joint with the secondary hull. I think Jefferies intended that to be a redesign of the trapezoidal pipe assembly behind the mesh separator in TOS. He was replacing the nacelles and it makes sense that the way they would interface with the rest of the ship would be redesigned as well. But Minor made the “wrong” side of the safety curtain be the habitable space. And then Probert took that and went with it when it got - nonsensically - moved from below the pylons to the interconnecting dorsal.

As for whether Jefferies intended his engineering set to be a generic space that could be in either the saucer or secondary hull, I can only say forced perspective would have nothing to do with it. That was FJ’s problem. Jefferies might well have intended a full length version of the forced perspective pipes to run under the impulse detail atop the saucer aft. That could directly link a reactor - the impulse reactor - to a dissipator.
 
Perhaps I was being too offhand and unspecific. I don’t mean to suggest the problem of heat dissipation should be disregarded with magic technology. I mean to say the same technology that could build that starship should be able to dissipate its heat via the hull or the grid.

Technology is still bound by physics, though. No matter how advanced the ship is, it's still surrounded by vacuum, and thus its exclusive option for heat dissipation is radiation. And that requires 1) a large surface area that's 2) pointed outward from the ship so that it doesn't just radiate the heat onto a different part of the ship and 3) adjustable to be edge-on to any nearby star so that it doesn't absorb more heat than it gives off. The necessary design for heat radiators is more a function of the surrounding environment than of the technology of the ship, so that imposes certain fundamental requirements on the design, just as hydrodynamics imposes certain fundamental requirements on the design of a watercraft. The most you could do with technology is improve the efficiency with which it radiates heat.

I could buy that there are radiators along the outer faces of the nacelles, but not the inner faces, because then they'd be radiating heat right onto each other, which would be stupid and defeat the whole purpose. As for their low surface area, perhaps they're finely nanotextured so the surface area is much greater than it appears, but then you've still got the directional problem, i.e. that much of the surface area of a spongelike nanotexture would be pointing toward other parts of itself rather than toward empty space. And since their angle isn't adjustable relative to the ship, you'd have to orient the entire ship so that the sunlight was shining from directly "above" or "below" the nacelles -- but then you'd have an entire face of the saucer absorbing direct sunlight and creating a new heat problem. Plus we usually see ships oriented in an "upright" position so that the sunlight comes from the side.

Hmm, maybe it's the surface of the saucer that's the radiator, since it's the largest flat area? But we sometimes see people walking comfortably atop it.

Of course, this isn't exclusively a Trek problem. TV/movie spaceships never show heat radiator fins/sails, even though they're one of the most indispensable components of any large spacecraft. The Discovery in 2001 was going to have radiator sails on its engine module, but Kubrick nixed them for some reason. It's a shame -- I think designing starships with sails would be cool, giving them a nautical flavor.


Jefferies might well have intended a full length version of the forced perspective pipes to run under the impulse detail atop the saucer aft.

Which would've required putting the engineering section somewhat farther forward. My point is that the FP piece was meant to suggest a long linear volume, which makes more sense in the secondary hull than the primary. Between that and the tendency to refer to engineering as the lower levels, I'm skeptical that there was any intention of having a duplicate engine room in the saucer.
 
1. In Catspaw has two entries for heat on the Enterprise:
  • During Silvia's dangling the voodoo doll ship over the candle, we hear:
    • KIRK: DeSalle, channel bypass power into your heat dissipation units. DESALLE [OC]: We've already done it, Captain. It had no effect. We're cooking up here.
  • DESALLE: All right, but it's there and it's real. If it's real, it can be affected. Engineering, stand by to divert all power systems to the outer hull. Prepare impulse engines for generation of maximum heat directed as ordered. Maybe we can't break it, but I'll bet you credits to navy beans we can put a dent in it.
Looks like internal environmental temperatures are removed via "heat dissipation units" which are an active system requiring power to operate, so, it's not a passive system of real world radiators. The impulse engines generate heat and the heat is directed away from the ship (through those two large square vents on the rear of the saucer?)

2. Additionally, if the ship can deflect heat beams and such using its deflector screens/shields, then it's only one small step to suggest it can expel heat from the ship with the same/similar technology (using internal "heat dissipation units" to move the heat to either the shield generators or just the external hull). While in motion, and actively generating more heat, the ship's navigation deflectors are in constant use, so, why not throw out the heat at the same time.

3. Another idea is that heat dissipation units exists as part of the nacelles such as through the rear nacelle silver caps or the screen mesh features on the inner nacelles and/or the screen mesh vents in the nacelle pylons. Since these are active systems, then the power to heat ratio needs to be favorable. (Apparently for the later two ideas, expelling the heat to the outside of the ship might affect the warp bubble, so the heat is jammed to the space between the nacelles (along with heat from the impulse engine vents) then leaked out he rear of the bubble.)

Even while diving into a sun, they only worried about the external hull temperatures. It's clear that heat dissipation is robustly engineered into the Enterprise, so, don't worry about it guys. :bolian:
 
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^Like I said, it's not about whatever made-up handwaves there are in dialogue, it's about the fundamental laws of the universe and whether or not a work of fiction chooses to follow them. What I'm saying is that I wish there were more works of fiction that chose to get the physics right rather than resorting to the kind of gibberish that Trek too often falls back on. It doesn't do any good to use the gibberish itself as a defense of the gibberish.
 
I have long assumed, perhaps too blithely, that a ship of that shape doing the things it is shown to do would require some new understanding of physics that would reveal this mysterious “subspace” through which FTL communications are possible, to be what we see in the Casimir Effect- the source of zero point energy. And that if such a negative energy could be drawn from subspace, it would also need to be replaced. And that the exchange would explain magical-looking heat dissipation.

In fact, I went out of my way to design what I called “Casimir collectors” that I included in my own cross section of the TOS ship -smaller units in the secondary hull and very large units in the nacelles. The problem has been on my mind that long.

(The vaguely phallic looking units shaded black that are centered behind the main sensor/navigational deflector):

https://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/blueprints/web/1701-cutaway.jpg

I assumed that these things were linked to the hanging moire panels all over the ship, and that those panels were subspace energy exchangers.
 
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^Again, though, I'm saying it would be nice to see more SF in TV and film that starts with real physics and works out its designs from that starting point, rather than starting with arbitrary designs and handwaving them with appeals to vague future science.
 
^Again, though, I'm saying it would be nice to see more SF in TV and film that starts with real physics and works out its designs from that starting point, rather than starting with arbitrary designs and handwaving them with appeals to vague future science.
Colloquially referred to as "hard science fiction", I believe... ;)

I have long assumed, perhaps too blithely, that a ship of that shape doing the things it is shown to do would require some new understanding of physics that would reveal this mysterious “subspace” through which FTL communications are possible, to be what we see in the Casimir Effect- the source of zero point energy. And that if such a negative energy could be drawn from subspace, it would also need to be replaced. And that the exchange would explain magical-looking heat dissipation.

In fact, I went out of my way to design what I called “Casimir collectors” that I included in my own cross section of the TOS ship -smaller units in the secondary hull and very large units in the nacelles. The problem has been on my mind that long.

(The vaguely phallic looking units shaded black that are centered behind the main sensor/navigational deflector):

https://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/blueprints/web/1701-cutaway.jpg

I assumed that these things were linked to the hanging moire panels all over the ship, and that those panels were subspace energy exchangers.
Is there anywhere that shows your cutaway with callouts?
 
The same happened with the Vulcan speech in TMP - but it was a bit obvious because the subtitles reflected the original English as shot! IIRC for the director's cut the subtitles were changed a bit so it wasn't as obvious.
I'd forgotten that they'd also done this in TMP. Thanks for the reminder!
Maybe that's what the assemblies behind the rear grille in the TOS set were meant to be. In the Drexler "In a Mirror, Darkly" cutaway, those are the power transfer conduits leading up into the nacelles, so that the triangular assembly is basically the lower half of an X shape with the nacelle struts as the top half.
That is how I've taken those diagonal pipes for years. It makes the most sense to me, and it helps reconcile the very different engine room designs of the TOS, movie, and 24th century eras.
Well, the engineering set was at one end of a short straight corridor that ran perpendicular to the curved corridor. Whether its connection to a curved corridor is visible depends on how the director sets up the shots. So it could've been that the intent was that it was in the secondary hull, but not all directors bothered to keep that in mind. Sort of like how you could sometimes see the edge of Spock's station even though it was supposed to be flush with the adjacent station.
Agreed. You do have to take a bit of artistic license when interpreting the TOS sets, IMO. It's pretty impossible to get all Thermian with it and take everything 100% literally.
the "pipe cathedral" section was clearly meant to be a forced-perspective piece representing a longer tunnel with parallel edges...
I'm fairly certain the intention was that the "cathedral" was supposed to be a glimpse back along the length of the secondary hull.
Agreed. It's a shame that certain shots occassionally betrayed the forced perspective nature of the set.
Still, they did generally refer to engineering as "the lower levels" or the like.
Someone once asked Matt Jefferies exactly where on the ship Main Engineering was supposed to be. Jefferies supposedly looked at them like they had two heads and responded "In the Engineering Section," meaning the lower part of the ship.

John Byrne had a clever bit in issue #10 of his Star Trek: New Visions comic series where he revealed that "the bowling alley" was a nickname among the Enterprise's junior engineers for a long corridor of high-capacity batteries that ran nearly the entire length of the secondary hull. It made so much sense to me that I immediately made it a part of my head canon.
 
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Ship scale appears in the 982 foot range. I notice some TAS engineering features, too. Nice. :techman:

Looks like he depicts the TOS engine room as impulse engineering and the TAS engine room as warp engineering. Although I don't see any indication of the other engineering decks seen in TAS, like the big room with all the computer consoles and the core access hatch that Scotty got stuck under in "Beyond the Farthest Star."
 
Limitations of the centreline cutaway style, perhaps?

The section I'm talking about is so large that it probably crosses the centerline. The middle row of this image shows the part of it we saw in "Beyond the Farthest Star," and there's clearly more of the room beyond screen left. It's a very large space.

Plus, since we don't know the actual layout, there's no reason a blueprint artist couldn't choose to put it on the centerline. I'm just saying it would've been nice to include it.
 
The section I'm talking about is so large that it probably crosses the centerline. The middle row of this image shows the part of it we saw in "Beyond the Farthest Star," and there's clearly more of the room beyond screen left. It's a very large space.

Plus, since we don't know the actual layout, there's no reason a blueprint artist couldn't choose to put it on the centerline. I'm just saying it would've been nice to include it.
Wow, that's a lot larger than I remember! :eek:
While the lefthand console is obviously a reuse from the top image there, it also looks like the room as a whole be circular in shape - perhaps it belongs in the centre of the saucer? Alternatively, it may be the reason behind the curved corridors seen in the secondary hull
 
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