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Does Starfleet Have Minelayers & Minesweepers?

Dayton3

Admiral
Given we saw the extensive use of mine warfare by the Federation and the Klingons in Deep Space Nine, it seems to me that Starfleet would have some specialized ships to lay those mines and most especially to sweep them.

I don't know what dedicated mine warfare ships would look like.

The Defiant seemed to lay mines effectively, though one can wonder about the fact that a few hits by Jem'hadar weapons put it in danger of blowing up.

And the Defiant took days to lay a minefield of course.

And it seems to me that a specialized ship capable of quickly clearing lanes through minefields for follow on forces would be needed.
 
I would imagine that the phasers on any ship would be able to do a pretty good job of destroying mines pretty quickly.
 
^ True, but that assumes the vessel doesn't have to fight the enemy minelayer at the same time. I can't think of any specific designs for either mission, although you can carry mines on ships in Starfleet Command 3. They can be launched during combat to hamper an opponent's maneuverability.
 
Sounds pretty risky - the Klingons manage to mine themselves in "Sons of Mogh"!

Further judging by that episode, it seems Klingons don't believe in specialized minelayers. Then again, basically all Soviet vessels had the ability to lay mines, while their western equivalents generally lacked that capability. That was mainly due to doctrine, as NATO had nothing to gain from laying mines, and the Warsaw Pact had everything to gain.

Also, minesweeping seems complicated by the fact that Klingon mines can cloak. Cardassian mines were effective against Federation shipping in TNG "Ethics", too, even if Cardassians aren't famous for their cloaking technology - so lesser stealth measures probably suffice as well. We may have seen such lesser measures in ENT "Minefield".

In contrast, when our heroes stumble through the effort of creating a functional mine barricade for the wormhole in DS9 "Call to Arms", the fact that they explicitly have to suggest cloaking may hint that Starfleet doesn't really practice minelaying and has to learn everything anew here. Doesn't mean Starfleet wouldn't practice minesweeping, though.

How to sweep cloaked mines that may either explode in proximity, or perhaps launch torpedoes or other homing warheads, or possibly fire phasers or other energy weapons? It would seem like an obvious approach to do it the conventional minesweeping way: launch decoys through the minefield to set off the mines, or at least fool them to temporarily activating so that they can be targeted and destroyed. This might call for a special ship equipped for launching those drones - or then just a standard ship with special payloads to its torpedoes.

Another alternative would be to fire blindly and hope that the blasts would degrade the cloaks and expose the mines, or perhaps even detonate one or two. That would work in tight places, but not for clearing an entire star system of shipping hazards as in "Sons of Mogh".

Timo Saloniemi
 
it seems to me that Starfleet would have some specialized ships to lay those mines and most especially to sweep them

With exactly one purpose-built combat starship type and with that particular prototype being the one that engaged in the vast majority of mine laying on the show (and that for a particular purpose that would apply almost nowhere else), it seems a pretty huge leap that Starfleet would have ships for such a specialized and non-peaceful purpose. There didn't even seem to be a standard mine that could be adapted for the job on either DS9 or TNG (when Jellico used some mines); didn't they end up using cargo crates?? :lol: There's something very un-Starfleet about the use of dangerous and indiscriminate munitions in this way.

As for minesweeping, it seems to me any ship of the line--outfitted for scientific exploration and self-defense as they are--is up to this task, its sensors and phasers suited to the job.

I don't imagine that use of mines in Star Trek is especially common, however. Space is too big and crucial areas (like the orbit of a friendly planet) too small to make the distribution of mines practical. Non-cloaked mines seem of limited use for most conceivable purposes, so it seems particularly unlikely the Federation would have many chances to make use of mining.
 
With exactly one purpose-built combat starship type

Only by a Bajoran resistance fighter's sarcastic quip. I'm sure Starfleet is full of dedicated combat types, including those vessels so politically incorrectly dubbed "destroyers" that Sisko orders around in "Sacrifice of Angels". It's just that most of those seem to have at least one secondary role or side mission, possibly out of practical reasons, perhaps just for the sake of political pretense. Klingons considered Kirk's ship a battle cruiser even if Starfleet itself may have insisted otherwise.

Perhaps something like the Nova would make for a nice minesweeper? The berth where the atmospheric shuttle rides might accommodate some sort of a dedicated sweeping drone, or drone mothership to a swarm of lesser drones. And the big sensor arrays would try to divine the location of the mines.

As for minelaying, it's an art not dependent on the mines actually hitting anything. In the World Wars, German raiders sowed mines in mere dozens in the Indian Ocean, and still managed to create a big fright when one or two actually bumped against merchant ships. A naval mine's role isn't to blow up enemy shipping: it is to tie down enemy resources in sweeping and other countermeasures, and to make him hesistant to maneuver to begin with. The Klingon mines around the Bajoran system should have been good enough for that, even when (and especially when) their existence was known. Conversely, knowledge of their precise locations rendered them useless - there would have been no practical need to sweep them.

There's another type of naval mine, to be sure: the impassably dense minefield intended to protect one's own harbor. The field that blockaded the wormhole would be more like that one.

The third type, mentioned above in connection with gaming, would be the mine sown to discourage pursuit or limit maneuverability at a battle site. Such use in naval warfare has classically led to disaster, such as in the Russo-Japanese war. But space might just be big enough for that to work. Whenever we see the E-D fire a volley of torpedoes aft to keep the pursuer at bay, we can think that in wartime, two torpedoes out of three would be fitted with trap-type detonators (timers, proximity sensors etc) and further torps would be left without the expensive warhead altogether, leaving the enemy anxiously guessing whether there are enough torps ahead of him to blow up his ship or not.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Only by a Bajoran resistance fighter's sarcastic quip.

And by the entire intention of the writers in introducing a "new class" of ship designed for fighting, an idea that Starfleet "began exploring" five years before because of "desperate times" (quotes from script)

I'm sure Starfleet is full of dedicated combat types

Fancruft has held this to be so for decades and I'm as familiar with the products of this desire as you are, but few go so far as to claim that this comes anything close to what we've seen on screen; I figured I'd answer from this perspective

including those vessels so politically incorrectly dubbed "destroyers" that Sisko orders around in "Sacrifice of Angels"

I always wondered if "Destroyer Units Two and Six" referred to the groups that were supposed to be drawing off Cardassian destroyers, since we definitely did hear that word applied to the Cardassian ships once or twice

It's just that most of those seem to have at least one secondary role or side mission, possibly out of practical reasons, perhaps just for the sake of political pretense.

Aside from the Defiant, I can't think of any purpose-built warships with one stated secondary role or mission that are part of the canon...maybe Prometheus, but it seems to have multimission capability just like the others. So I chose to answer the question from that angle, since otherwise the question would just be "has anyone ever made up a Starfleet minesweeper" which is kind of a gimme

Klingons considered Kirk's ship a battle cruiser even if Starfleet itself may have insisted otherwise.

rofl

Perhaps something like the Nova would make for a nice minesweeper?

Or any larger and fancier ship, which would presumably be packing sensors up to the task
 
And by the entire intention of the writers in introducing a "new class" of ship designed for fighting, an idea that Starfleet "began exploring" five years before because of "desperate times" (quotes from script)

To be sure, the desperation specifically referred to the Borg, and the answer was supposed to be any functional anti-Borg gimmick, not necessarily a thoroughbred warship. Sisko's creation was just one of the many spinoffs, and apparently not the right solution to the problem.

Fancruft has held this to be so for decades and I'm as familiar with the products of this desire as you are, but few go so far as to claim that this comes anything close to what we've seen on screen; I figured I'd answer from this perspective

Fair enough. But Kirk's ship already seemed to be the ideal ride for a man who considers himself soldier first and foremost. And to say that Starfleet is sold short on the combat abilities of its ships would go against the theme of victorious battles in TOS, or of smug superiority of arms in TNG. So one has to take care not to go overboard with the idea that Starfleet ships are "noncombatants" because they aren't "pure" warships. Certainly Kira seems to claim Starfleet doesn't believe in warships in general, no matter the degree of purity, and that part should be taken as sarcasm.

Going by onscreen sources, we have never been told that the Trek hero ships would have been designed with a purpose other than combat primarily in mind. The Galaxy class looks the same whether on a mission of exploration and diplomacy, or desperately fighting back the Klingon war machine in an alternate timeline. When Harry Kim complains that the Intrepid class isn't good for his musical performance, the counterpoint that Paris chooses is combat performance. And even the humblest Nova science vessel, explicitly dedicated to planetary surveys, is armed to teeth.

So the evidence is ambiguous, and the reasoning could go either way. That is, unless one accepts those aspects of "militaristic" fandom that seep onto the screen at times, such as the FJ destroyers and dreadnoughts in TOS movie background graphics.

I always wondered if "Destroyer Units Two and Six" referred to the groups that were supposed to be drawing off Cardassian destroyers, since we definitely did hear that word applied to the Cardassian ships once or twice

Good point. The terminology certainly seems mixed, including "Galaxy wings" (that may very well consist solely or primarily of Galaxy class vessels, as up to four are seen rushing into the same breach in "Sacrifice of Angels") and "attack wings" (apparently described by the nature of their mission). The mix could well include a wing designated by its intended targets.

Or any larger and fancier ship, which would presumably be packing sensors up to the task

One might argue that mines are intended to go for big ships, and that a smaller even if less capable one would have an easier time going hunting for such mines. That's why today's sweepers tend to be underpowered (big engines would trigger magnetic as well as acoustic mines), small and on the weak side (as strong steel hulls would again be triggers) and underarmed even for self-defense (same with big guns and radars).

Also, the smaller a ship you lose in this risky business, the better. But yes, a large drone carrier that stands off at sufficient distance might also be practicable. Difficult to tell since our heroes have had other ways to deal with mines so far.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Longtime lurker, so forgive my ignorance, but wouldn't the navigational deflector clear mines from the ship's path, cloaked or not? I know it is said they can clear small asteroids, and we saw Voyager's deflector clear dust at the opening of every episode, so I would hope the mass of a mine would be within the moving capabilities of the deflector.
 
Longtime lurker, so forgive my ignorance, but wouldn't the navigational deflector clear mines from the ship's path, cloaked or not? I know it is said they can clear small asteroids, and we saw Voyager's deflector clear dust at the opening of every episode, so I would hope the mass of a mine would be within the moving capabilities of the deflector.

Only problem with that theory is that the mines would blow up when moved by external forces.
:D
 
Which would have the same effect as phasering them, I would think. I guess they could maximize the range of the deflector to prevent damage to the ship.
 
The thing to me would be the difficulty in detecting mines at sufficient range that they could be easily and safely destroyed.

Even without an actual cloaking device I'm sure a small mine with an antimatter warhead could be built difficult to detect.

The other thing would be "how fast do you want to cross an enemy minefield"?

If you are wanting to cross into enemy held space that is blocked by a minefield, chances are you don't want to spend a lot of time dicking around with scanning meticulously for each mine and then phasering it.

I think you would want some massive scanning platform (kind of like an AWACs type aircraft today) which could detect mines plus a massive "area detonating" system which could generate some kind of energy pulse that would detonated mines over several thousand kilometers at once.

Thus clearing lanes for your fleet.
 
We might assume that Trek mines are relatively smart devices. Instead of just waiting for something to bump onto them (or enter a trigger range of, say, a couple of thousand clicks) as the cue to blow up, they could be carefully listening to the traffic around them, waiting for the right moment to strike. They would have some capacity for maneuvering, and would try to sneak up on you if you looked like attractive enough a target, but would avoid you and your phaser/deflector sweeps otherwise. They would also be hardened against attempts to simply blast them away. And such blasting would be difficult in the vacuum of space anyway.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Which would have the same effect as phasering them, I would think. I guess they could maximize the range of the deflector to prevent damage to the ship.

But then you encounter a problem of explosive ranges when mines go off and just how far the deflector field could extend.
Maybe it's possible for a subspace deflector field to be several km away from the ship in question (unless it's highly advanced technology that would be able to do that on a distance of hundreds/thousands of kilometers - perhaps in the 25th or 26th century) ...but for 24th century ships/mines and technology I think that 'several km' is not nearly enough to be outside of the blast radius.

As for cloaked mines ... since mines are stationary for the most part, it would be relatively simple to cloak/conceal them effectively.
But any tech could be circumvented eventually if you know how to approach the problem and have the time to perform such a task.

Federation mines could lay dormant (silent mode) and easily pass detection for the most part.
When a target enters specific range, it could activate and move towards the said target (or explode if it's close enough to inflict damage from a distance).
 
Maybe it's possible for a subspace deflector field to be several km away from the ship in question

Really, to be effective at warp speeds or high impulse, the navigational deflector should reach at least several lightseconds ahead of the ship. That is, a million kilometers or so.

No doubt this is why the deflector dish is such a prominent piece of equipment: the task is far from trivial. Probably the dish creates some sort of a forward-reaching subspace field to "carry the beam" at FTL speeds - and probably something like this would be very helpful for long-reaching sensors as well, explaining why the dish would do double duty.

But navigational deflectors are suggested to be very weak in comparison with combat shields (or, rather, the combat shields are significantly stronger), and probably the latter indeed cannot be extended more than a few kilometers beyond the projecting ship. Poking ahead with nav deflectors thus might not be enough to set off mines. And if you only push them aside, they might use their maneuverability to get back in front of you at the crucial last fraction of a second.

They might even play the slippery soap game. Shields seem to be a countermeasure to tractor beams, at least whenever the Borg grab our heroes in their tractors. Mines might have the sort of shielding that makes the deflector beam inefficient.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Hmm.. well, in strict 'canon' terms for each show, I can't see dedicated Federation minelayer/sweepers in any show but TOS (and then in limited numbers). Other ships may be capable of the job, such as the Enterprise herself under Jericho's command, but dedicated ships seem very unlikely - particularly with how limited of usefulness mines would be in space.

Breaking 'canon', seems to me that you would find them in the TOS era and maybe in the early TMP era. But I would think that if you include the FJ material, you would see a minelayer container pod strapped to a Ptolemy or Doppler.
 
I think you would want some massive scanning platform (kind of like an AWACs type aircraft today) which could detect mines plus a massive "area detonating" system which could generate some kind of energy pulse that would detonated mines over several thousand kilometers at once.


Kinda like the Nebula class Phoenix with the crazy sensor pod.
 
Just remember: any ship can be a minesweeper. Once. :)

Except perhaps in DS9, where any ship that blows up in a self-regenerating minefield just serves as raw material for even more mines. ;)

Timo Saloniemi
 
Hmm.. well, in strict 'canon' terms for each show, I can't see dedicated Federation minelayer/sweepers in any show but TOS (and then in limited numbers). Other ships may be capable of the job, such as the Enterprise herself under Jericho's command, but dedicated ships seem very unlikely - particularly with how limited of usefulness mines would be in space.

If I remember, it was Riker and LaForge laying mines in a shuttle, not the Enterprise herself.
 
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