Does anyone else find it Funny how Berman said...
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If you'd only watched the films, I think you could be forgiven for not even knowing what a Romulan was. I mean, prior to Nemesis, how many show up? One?
Star Trek is kind of a one in a million barrel of monkeys in that way. Harry Potter, likely the longest of acclaimed movie productions, when all is said and done will likely wind up probably being about 16-20 hours worth of film; in the mind of the fan, a whole universe is wrapped up in those short hours. Not so with Star Trek; 20 hours of film time just means that we are beginning to get slightly acquainted with what it's all about. If you want to call yourself a fan, come back after another couple of hundred.
The thing that separates ST from other TV shows is that unlike most shows, which are seen as a whole bunch of essentially independent episodes with a single cast, Star Trek is seen as one big inter-connected story. As somebody said elsewhere, Star Trek is, itself, the main actor. Each episode or film is just a brick in the great wall.
From that standpoint, it is perverse to suggest that anybody is "sick of Romulans." Perhaps it makes sense if you are coming at it with a very non-trek mentality, but as far as I am concerned, sometimes the show is worth watching just because it is Star Trek.
If I had the choice, I don't think that I would have killed off Data in Nemisis, or Kirk in Generations, or allowed the Enterprise D to crash; but once it hit the screen it became canon.
We can talk about where we want Star Trek to go, but I think that once the script is written, most fans are more or less content to accept where it has gone and where it is, and leave it at that.
Very likely, Belar.Kegg, are you who I think you are?
Makes sense. Romulans have had such major roles since TNG went off the air. I don't think DS9, Voyager, or Enterprise ever did an episode without them. It's only understandable that people would be irritated by their major role, yet again, in Nemesis. After all, who could forget commander what's-her-face and her two minutes of screen time?
I would've killed Data but had none of the B4 stuff. If I had the choice between killing Kirk like they did in Generations or keeping him alive, I'd keep him alive. I'm not too bothered about the Enterprise crashing; a ship is a ship.
I've never tired of Romulans. Not once. I'm actually watching Unification right now. LOL! I still think they're a criminally underexploited race... especially compared to how much we know about the Klingons. Sure, if you're hardcore... you can get your fix from the novels of Diane Duane and discover the name of their race, in their mother tongue.
I was hoping for a writer to really mine Romulan history before Enterprise ended, (on the level Ronald Moore did to flesh out Klingons during TNG) but it wasn't to be... maybe because of Berman's attitude or maybe for other reasons. You know, given that the Vulcans already anti-heros on that show, unsympathetic to Starfleet... an interesting way to go, would've been for the Romulans to turn out far more honorable than history paints them... getting into a war with humankind, primarily because of our inexperience and arrogance. Earth barely wins the war and then purposely tells quite a different story than what actually happened in combat... partly to give the fledgling Federation a chance at life. This becomes a major greviance they hold against us across the centuries, through to both Kirk & Picard's time and beyond.
I was hoping for a writer to really mine Romulan history before Enterprise ended, (on the level Ronald Moore did to flesh out Klingons during TNG) but it wasn't to be... maybe because of Berman's attitude or maybe for other reasons. You know, given that the Vulcans already anti-heros on that show, unsympathetic to Starfleet... an interesting way to go, would've been for the Romulans to turn out far more honorable than history paints them... getting into a war with humankind, primarily because of our inexperience and arrogance. Earth barely wins the war and then purposely tells quite a different story than what actually happened in combat... partly to give the fledgling Federation a chance at life. This becomes a major greviance they hold against us across the centuries, through to both Kirk & Picard's time and beyond.
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It's interesting that Nemesis supposedly failed due to people being sick of Romulans, when the Romulans actually played a very minor role and it was a human and his Reman associates who were the primary antagonists.
Mr. Berman is on record many times as saying that Nemesis failed due to overall fatigue with the franchise, in addition to this statement about being sick of the Romulans.
I actually do think "franchise fatigue" played a role. But by franchise fatigue, I mean people tiring of the same Trek that had been produced by the same team of people for quite a few years. While TNG and DS9 were unique and different from what came before, Voyager, Enterprise, and the TNG films became little more than cookie cutter clones of one another. As a result, I think people began to find them very bland and predictable.
Now, having said that, I don't think that means that the right TNG movie couldn't have been successful. If movie number 10 had been First Contact, I think it would have succeeded. But I do think franchise fatigue made it harder for a mediocre Trek movie to succeed than in the past.
At the most basic level, though, I just don't think Rick Berman is able to acknowledge the broad consensus that Nemesis was just a bad, fundamentally flawed movie. I believe he honestly feels that it was a good movie, and he is not willing to consider otherwise, so he has to look to other potential reasons for the movie's failure. And, really, it must be hard to fully accept the fact that you produced the first and only movie in Trek franchise history to lose money.
Mr. Berman is on record many times as saying that Nemesis failed due to overall fatigue with the franchise, in addition to this statement about being sick of the Romulans.
I actually do think "franchise fatigue" played a role. But by franchise fatigue, I mean people tiring of the same Trek that had been produced by the same team of people for quite a few years. While TNG and DS9 were unique and different from what came before, Voyager, Enterprise, and the TNG films became little more than cookie cutter clones of one another. As a result, I think people began to find them very bland and predictable.
Now, having said that, I don't think that means that the right TNG movie couldn't have been successful. If movie number 10 had been First Contact, I think it would have succeeded. But I do think franchise fatigue made it harder for a mediocre Trek movie to succeed than in the past.
At the most basic level, though, I just don't think Rick Berman is able to acknowledge the broad consensus that Nemesis was just a bad, fundamentally flawed movie. I believe he honestly feels that it was a good movie, and he is not willing to consider otherwise, so he has to look to other potential reasons for the movie's failure. And, really, it must be hard to fully accept the fact that you produced the first and only movie in Trek franchise history to lose money.
Romulans are the voice of the culture of the Roman Empire. Seriously, if they were gone it would leave an unreplaceable void in the cultural representation of Star Trek; they aren't as primal as the warrior Klingons, not as philosophically focused as the Vulcans, not as commercial as humans; but they retain a certain disciplined system of honor and pride in who they are, and that makes them - just like the ancient Romans are to us in Earth culture - very unique and special.
I like to think that if Romulus and the Federation forged solid diplomatic ties, there would be nothing quite as comforting as having a Romulan vessel for an escort. The words of the Romulan captain in the TNG episode "The Chase" - after the genetically based software program was discovered - are a nice tip of the hat to the potential of the Romulans.
I think there was genuine franchise fatigue, but it was his (and co') and not necessarily the audience. The Berman era had run completely out of steam and was going on empty, and that had been the case for a year or two prior to Nemesis' release.
That, and yeah, they'd admittedly glutted the market in the 1990s. You had three TV series and three movies that decade alone. Star Trek having scaled back to simply a film franchise isn't such a bad idea, really.
Poor Romulans! They get no respect. In the movies, anyway. ST3? The originally planned Romulans get replaced with Klingons (thereby endlessly skewing future Klingon developments). ST5? They get the best looking ambassador, I'll give them that, but she has an Irish name! Half-Rom at best?
There's one oily Romulan ambassador in ST6, but he gets largely excised from the final cut of the movie.
Dead Romulans in "Generations".
Finally Romulans are supposed to shine in "Nemesis" and get serious screen time and...nope. Got largely replaced by ugly Remans. After getting their government offed and taken over by a HUMAN clone. Geez. Poor Rommie bastards!
At least they get some glory in ST '09 and...wait. Their homeworld gets blown up! aw. poor guys.
Seriously, Romulans need some love! Adopt a Rommie today!
There's one oily Romulan ambassador in ST6, but he gets largely excised from the final cut of the movie.
Dead Romulans in "Generations".
Finally Romulans are supposed to shine in "Nemesis" and get serious screen time and...nope. Got largely replaced by ugly Remans. After getting their government offed and taken over by a HUMAN clone. Geez. Poor Rommie bastards!
At least they get some glory in ST '09 and...wait. Their homeworld gets blown up! aw. poor guys.
Seriously, Romulans need some love! Adopt a Rommie today!
You know, it seems like a million years ago when I had that name ...Very likely, Belar.Kegg, are you who I think you are?
Ha, so it is you, Kegek! How are you doing, old chap? Forgot the password, eh?
I must say, reading your posts reminds me of how much I missed them. It's good to have you back ...
Oh yeah! How could I forget?
"Insurrection"--should have been Romulans with a world in the Neutral Zone, but...no. Son'a. Creepy latex-faced brats at war with their folks. sigh.
"Insurrection"--should have been Romulans with a world in the Neutral Zone, but...no. Son'a. Creepy latex-faced brats at war with their folks. sigh.
A problem I'd have with Romulans in Nemesis is how they're completely sidelined, and in the new movie in how, well, untypically Romulan they are. I realize this is the point, with them being miners and so forth, but it would be nice to have seen a classically Romulan villain on the big screen.
Yup. And truth be told, Kegg was my older name from when I was here 2000-2 or so. Must say it's good to be back and such.You know, it seems like a million years ago when I had that name ...Very likely, Belar.Kegg, are you who I think you are?
Ha, so it is you, Kegek! How are you doing, old chap? Forgot the password, eh?
Ironically, probably the closest we ever got was Kruge.
Poor Romulans. Apart from Caithlin Dar, Ambassador Nanclus, that dead guy in Generations, Shinzon's mates in Nemesis, and the Romulan Experience Featuring Nero in XI, the Rommies have been criminally underused in the movie series. If anything Berman should have realised how sick people were of the Klingons. They appeared in nearly every one! I was glad to get a break from them in XI (the deleted Rura Penthe bit, and their D7 class ships showing up in the no-win scenario notwithstanding).
Underdeveloped, definitely. How can we get sick of them? We don't even know, them, really. It would require one or two major Romulan characters developed over time before we'd start to get a handle on them.
But first, the writers need to get a handle on them. The Romulans in Trek XI could have been any bunch of alien baddies. The Rommies do have unique qualities that would be a good basis for stories, but we've only seen hints; someday, maybe we'll get more...
You're just scratching the surface, there's more to them than that. They have created a functional society, like the Vulcans have, while having the same handicap the Vulcans have. The Vulcans use logic to overcome their innate violent emotions and not tear each other to shreds; the Rommies do the same with xenophobia.
Which makes it very interesting when it comes to their relations with outsiders. The whole Star Trek hold-hands-sing-kumbayah thing won't work for the Rommies - it can't. Even if they want it to. That is what makes them unique, not that they're "noble and honorable underneath" or whatever, which actually makes them sound quite dull.
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