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Doctor n00b question

Plain Simple

Commodore
Commodore
I'm relatively new to Doctor Who (but then I guess a lot of people are relatively new to a series that's been around for almost 50 years), so being the n00b I am, I have a question for you. I browsed through the primer thread, but I don't think it was addressed there. This thread may possibly contain spoilers up to episode 2 of series 6. Please do not spoil beyond that episode.

First a bit of my personal Doctor Who background. I had seen the odd episode before (of the new series, I don't think I've ever seen an episode of the original run), but never really liked it enough to start watching on a regular basis. The episodes I'd seen came across as rather light, uninspired, and pointless. Perhaps I had an unlucky sample, or I wasn't in the right mood, or my expectations were too high. Whatever the case may be, I never got into the series. Until last year. I cannot remember why exactly (perhaps because I had heard there was a new actor taking over the role of the Doctor, perhaps because I had quite a few friends who always had nothing but high praise for the show, or perhaps because I had recently watched and liked some Torchwood episodes), but I decided to watch the series 5 opening episode and I was sold. I liked Matt Smith as the Doctor, I liked Karen Gillan as Amy Pond, and I liked the pacing of the story and dialogue. I've been watching ever since.

As might be clear from the above I didn't come into the series with a blank slate. I knew a little bit about the background of the series and what it is about and one thing I thought I knew was that I should see the whole time travel aspect as nothing more but a quick and easy way to get the characters to whatever setting they needed to be in for the story to unfold. I went in, not paying a lot of attention to the plausibility of the whole concept, just taking it in and enjoying the story. Then something happened, over the course of series 5 and especially it seems the most recent episodes of series 6 time travel started playing a much more central role in the story. Not only that, but the story started inviting me to think about it. It was no longer possible to ignore it and view it only as a story telling tool to get the people to where they needed to be, it became an integral part of the story. Mysteries started presenting themselves, the contemplation of which demanded attention was paid to time travel.

So finally, here is my question then: What, if any, are the rules of Doctor Who time travel? Has there been any sort of consistency in what is and isn't possible over the history of the show (or at the very least, over the history of the modern incarnation of the show)? For example, can the Doctor travel back and interfere with his own past? It seems he can, given the events in The Impossible Astronaut. Can he interfere with previous incarnations of himself? Do his actions in the past change the future or create a new timeline or somesuch, or does it follow a kind of "whatever happened happened" philosophy in which he *always* changed the past (or is there no consistency on this point either)? If it changes the future, isn't he concerned with that? For example, in Day of the Moon, isn't he concerned that driving out the Silence from earth would stifle progress (since apparently the Silence were responsible for initiating such advances as the flight to the moon) and hence change the future? If he isn't concerned with that, what prevents him from going back to whenever the Silence first arrived on earth and kick 'em back then, instead of in '69? Etc. etc. etc.

Again, I came into this series thinking that I shouldn't be paying attention to these kind of questions and just enjoy the ride, but the story seems to be inviting me (us) to ponder such things. Any input? Thanks!
 

Did you even read what I wrote? Specifically the second sentence: "I browsed through the primer thread, but I don't think it was addressed there." ?

If the answer to my question is in the primer, can you tell me where, because like I said, I didn't find anything browsing through it (I read the first post in detail and then browsed through the next 9 pages).
 
So finally, here is my question then: What, if any, are the rules of Doctor Who time travel? Has there been any sort of consistency in what is and isn't possible over the history of the show (or at the very least, over the history of the modern incarnation of the show)? For example, can the Doctor travel back and interfere with his own past?

Yes and no. There are sort of fixed points in time, things that can't be changed. The Doctor (and, presumably, other Time Lords) sense these points. They know the difference between a fixed point and one that can be changed. The recent "Waters of Mars" was a great example of something like that, and shows what happens when somebody decides to change a fixed point anyway. Time gets angry when you do that.

The Doctor cannot change his own timeline. He CAN visit past and future versions of himself, he can even have an adventure with them, but he cannot change something about his past. ("The Runaway Bride" for example, gives info for that discussion).


Do his actions in the past change the future or create a new timeline or somesuch, or does it follow a kind of "whatever happened happened" philosophy in which he *always* changed the past (or is there no consistency on this point either)?

Most definitely. The Peladon stories, for example. But a much better example would be the recent "Turn Left" ... It showed an alternate universe/history/future in which Donna and the Doctor had not met, and what happened as a result.


If it changes the future, isn't he concerned with that? For example, in Day of the Moon, isn't he concerned that driving out the Silence from earth would stifle progress (since apparently the Silence were responsible for initiating such advances as the flight to the moon) and hence change the future? If he isn't concerned with that, what prevents him from going back to whenever the Silence first arrived on earth and kick 'em back then, instead of in '69? Etc. etc. etc.

If it's not a fixed point in time, and he can make something better, why not change it? He has that ability. He has to use it wisely, though. In Star Trek VI, the President said something along the lines of "Let us redefine progress to mean just because we can do something, it does not necessarily follow that we must do that thing." For the Doctor, it's just like that. He comes along and sees somebody in trouble, someone who needs help. He can help them, so he does. Why not do it? Most times the person is grateful and he moves on with his life. other times, it comes back to bite him in the ass. "Father's Day" for example.

Actually, "Father's Day" is a good example of WHY the Doctor can't mess with his own - or anyone else's - personal timeline. Great big hole in space and time.
 
the simple answer is the only rules are whatever suits the plot of the story at that precise point.

GENERALLY, no he can't interfere in his own past, either in the same incarnation or another. (it's against the First Law of Time)

as for changing things, again, it depends. sometimes he can - which he did in 'Waters of Mars' when he saved some people from dying who shouldn't have been - mostly he can't, unless the plot depends on it.

the only real rule is, there's no rules.
 

Did you even read what I wrote? Specifically the second sentence: "I browsed through the primer thread, but I don't think it was addressed there." ?

If the answer to my question is in the primer, can you tell me where, because like I said, I didn't find anything browsing through it (I read the first post in detail and then browsed through the next 9 pages).

The Time Lords (The Doctor's Race) have a rule about not interacting with former or future selves (Actually, they pretty much have a rule not meddle at all, but, that's aprt of why the Doctor is a fugitive from his people in the Classic Series). This is the first time, I believe (Other than Trial of a Time Lord - Classic Dr. Who # 6 Tom Baker Final Story) that the Dr. has interferred in his own timeline (There is a Very Good "Dr. Who Unbound" Audio Drama that shows what can hapen if you monkey around with your own timeline and try to fix your mistakes).

One rule that has been consistently "Hard and Fast" is the Doctor doesn't go back in time to prevent a companion from dying.

Also, prior to this Series, it's been pretty consistent that once the Tardis lands somewhere and an adventure starts, he doesn't take the easy way out, and skip back a few minutes (And he's never been particulary good at controlling the Tardis with pin point accuracy timewise/spacewise, so unlikely he could reliably pop back 5 minutes)
 
The "fixed point in time" aspect is new, having only been really developed in the revival. However there were some references to the concept in the original series, but nothing concrete. The original series introduced the "First Law of Time" which basically is "don't mess about with your own time stream" however the Time Lords allowed this to be broken on the several occasions in which different Doctors interacted. (And the obvious plot hole/paradox coming from this has been addressed in the new series; School Reunion established that the Tenth Doctor and Sarah Jane have no memory of having met each other during "The Five Doctors", and the Tenth/Fifth Doctor story Time Crash strongly implied the Tenth Doctor forgot the meeting until midway through his encounter with the Fifth when the cloister bell sounded in the TARDIS and he suddenly knew the solution to the dilemma.

The thing is, up till the end of the original series, the laws of time were governed by the Time Lords. In the revival the Time Lords, as a race, no longer exist, so that allows the laws to be bent and rewritten. The 2009 special The Waters of Mars illustrates this to chilling effect.

Alex
 

I hope you see the irony in claiming my post is too long and then referring me to read a 10 page thread which might or might not have anything to do with my question.


Well, on to the people on the Doctor Who message board who actually want to talk about Doctor Who.

Do his actions in the past change the future or create a new timeline or somesuch, or does it follow a kind of "whatever happened happened" philosophy in which he *always* changed the past (or is there no consistency on this point either)?

Most definitely. The Peladon stories, for example. But a much better example would be the recent "Turn Left" ... It showed an alternate universe/history/future in which Donna and the Doctor had not met, and what happened as a result.

Most definitely the future is changed, or most definitely a new timeline is created? What you say here seems to imply the latter, but most other things I read here seem to imply the former.


the simple answer is the only rules are whatever suits the plot of the story at that precise point.

That's what I thought, but it is a rather unsatisfying answer when the stories' mysteries seem to hinge on the details of time travel. Ah well, guess I just have to sit back and enjoy. ;)

Also, prior to this Series, it's been pretty consistent that once the Tardis lands somewhere and an adventure starts, he doesn't take the easy way out, and skip back a few minutes (And he's never been particulary good at controlling the Tardis with pin point accuracy timewise/spacewise, so unlikely he could reliably pop back 5 minutes)

He seems to be fairly good at it nowadays, picking up River Song mid-fall in the most recent episode for example. That's one of those examples of what I was referring to: these recent episodes make you wonder what the Doctor can and cannot do time travel wise.
 
Well, you were right in assuming that time travel in Doctor Who is just a means to bring the Doctor and his companions to interesting places. That's how the show was conceived and that's how it has been for most of its history.
As a result, the rules governing time travel have been inconsistent. It was always understood that the Doctor couldn't interfere with his own timeline, because there wouldn't be much of a show then. The old show didn't address this explicitly often, I think (I'm only up to season 12 in my viewing), and the reasons why this wasn't possible also varied. The first two Doctors were incapable of landing the TARDIS precisely and the Second Doctor said it wasn't a precision tool, though I think he referred to overcoming short distances. So, it basically came down to not being able to.
I might remember it wrong but I think that during the era of the Third Doctor it was implied that messing with your own timeline could have disastruous results.

The new show made it very clear what would happen in Father's Day, but also in other episodes.

However, Christmas Carol seems to have changed the rules because the Doctor does heavily interfere in someone else's life, thus changing the conditions he found when he first met that person.
Steven Moffat, the show's recent producer is very interested in time travel as a concept. Nearly all the stories he's written for the show (and even the Red Nose Day special) deal with it, and so does the show, now that he's in charge.

So, in summary, the rules do change rather arbitrarily sometimes.
 
The classic series does sometime address time paradoxes, or things that cannot be changed, but not to the extent the new one does. To add to the examples above: The Tenth Doctor does something in his first adventure which derails a "golden age of Britain" and allows one of his enemies to take over the world.

Here's a run-through of some stories of the older stories which address some paradoxes/time travel (Warning, spoilers for the classic series):

Aztecs-This is a story from the very first series/season, in which one of the companions-a school teacher-is mistaken for a goddess by the Aztecs. She then tries to alter time by abolishing sacrifice. Doesn't quite work out though.

Day of the Daleks-An alternate timeline in which earth is dominated by the Daleks is created by people going back in time to prevent that timeline from happening in the first place.


Pyramid Of Mars-This story has a small sequence in which the Doctor travels into the future without completing his adventure, and the earth is a desolate ruin. He then goes back and completes it and everything's OK.

Mawdryn Undead-Deals with the effect if the same people from two points in their timeline meet. In this case its the Doctor's semi-companion the Brigadier, who due to a TARDIS mix up, ends up on the same space ship in two aspects-one from 1977 and the other from 1983. The two meet and there's a zap which fortunately, shorts out a machine designed to cause the Doctor to lose all his regenerations. Of course it's implied that this was always meant to happen, as a result of his 1977 version getting zapped the Brigadier has lost memories of the Doctor by 1983.

The Curse of Fenric-The Doctor and Ace visit a base in World War II which is soon overcome by Vampires led by an evil spirit who has the ability to manipulate people and time. As part of his 'game' the Doctor's companion, Ace, creates her own future by unknowingly saving her grandmother and infant mother (And there's also an emotional paradox as well-she hates her mother but loves the infant!).

Of course the multi-Doctor stories also deal with this stuff. It's implied often that the Doctor's memories are wiped of these events in some of the spin-off media, so he's always surprised when he looks in a mirror after regenerating.
 

I hope you see the irony in claiming my post is too long and then referring me to read a 10 page thread which might or might not have anything to do with my question.

Frankly, I find the over analysis of Doctor Who to be a waste of time. It's lasted so long - albeit with a break of a over a decade - that its internal rules and history are frequently contradictory. It's just a TV show - you really should just relax.
 
I realised I was a bit unclear in my post because there are now two Red Nose Day specials. I meant The Curse of Fatal Death (written by Moffat in 1999 in the hiatus between the old show and the new) which shows how absurd the show would be if the Doctor was freely capable and allowed to alter his own timeline. It's on various video streaming sites and you might find it interesting (and hopefully fun) to watch, Plain Simple.
 
.... It's just a TV show - you really should just relax.


I am not so sure that anyone posting on this site can honestly claim to hold that point of view! :lol:

If we all actually took that advice seriously, we could shut down this site and all the discussion forums today and go outside and play in the sun (or maybe just dance in your room, if you take the advice of Michelle Obama, Drew Brees, Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck...).... :)

But that is not the case. As Plain Simple implied, many times a person prefers to start an interesting conversation with other fans to get questions answered, rather than just looking up information on Google. And on this site -especially- you never know where the conversation may go, and that is a pretty interesting aspect of the interactions. Google is great, but it is not much in the way of a community.

Because of this interest in discussion, I have no doubt the Trek BBS will still be up and running next time I am back online......
 
The Time Lords (The Doctor's Race) have a rule about not interacting with former or future selves

Is this what the Second Doctor was talking about in "The Five Doctors" when he says 'I'm not exactly BREAKING the laws of time, but I am bending them a little...'?

Meaning this: At this scene's point in time, in which this Doctor is visiting UNIT (to see the Brig and his replacement, Colonel Crichton), the Fifth Doctor is the current one. So the Second is doubling back on his own timeline by visiting UNIT at that point. Am I understanding this right?
 

I hope you see the irony in claiming my post is too long and then referring me to read a 10 page thread which might or might not have anything to do with my question.

Frankly, I find the over analysis of Doctor Who to be a waste of time. It's lasted so long - albeit with a break of a over a decade - that its internal rules and history are frequently contradictory. It's just a TV show - you really should just relax.

I can assure you that I am quite relaxed where it comes to watching Doctor Who. I just thought it would be fun (and relaxing) to discuss this topic with people who also have a fondness for the show and clearly more knowledge about it then me. If that's not for you, then fine, but I do have to wonder what made you join up with a Star Trek message board if you do not enjoy discussing about tv shows.

If the answer to my question is (as it largely seems to be) that there are no consistent time travel rules in Who lore and that we just have to wait and see where the current writer(s?) are taking this particular time travel story, then fine so be it. I won't lose any sleep over it, but I do enjoy the discussion. Is it a reasonable recap of the discussion so far to say that the how and what of time travel in Doctor Who have been reinvented many times over to suit the particular story, but that ---to preserve a sense of drama and relevance to the actions--- most writers have come up with some justification (time lords get angry, time itself gets angry) of why the Doctor cannot just go around interfering willy nilly with any event in history he likes, especially those events which affect himself or the people close to him?
 
ETA: In response to Laser Beam...

Well, they're not ordinarily supposed to meet each other, much less interact. The precedent was set in the first multi Doctor story, The Three Doctors in which the Timelords enabled the three Doctors to work together to save Gallifrey. At the time, the Third Doctor had been exiled to Earth for breaking the non-interference law (you're not supposed to interfere in the lesser species' affairs, either). The Second Doctor had been caught by the Timelords and been forced to regenerate (The War Games). So, the Doctor ended up being the only one who could help.
The bickering between Two and Three made saving the universe somewhat more difficult, though. ;)
 
Isn't there at least one story in which the Second Doctor actually *escapes* from the Time Lords as they're sentencing him at the end of TWG? I seem to remember one where they catch up to him, disguised as scarecrows, and shoot him, thus triggering his regeneration. Going by this, his appearance as #2 in TFG is at a point in his timestream after he has escaped from them following his sentencing. Is *this* what he might have been talking about?
 
Isn't there at least one story in which the Second Doctor actually *escapes* from the Time Lords as they're sentencing him at the end of TWG?

Well, not in The War Games, anyway. They almost manage to escape the Timelords twice but they don't. Jamie and Zoey are sent back to their times, the memories of their adventures with the Doctor erased. The Doctor gets a trial where he argues that the Timelords should interfere more often to protect the universe from groups bent on destruction like the Cybermen and the Daleks. The Timelords say they sort of agree and tell him that's why they're sending him to Earth and making him choose an appearance. At the end of the serial we see him in a spiral struggling against what the Timelords are doing to him. We don't see a regeneration, though. The next time we see the Doctor, as he arrives on Earth, he's already changed.


I seem to remember one where they catch up to him, disguised as scarecrows, and shoot him, thus triggering his regeneration.

Well, I don't. ;)


Going by this, his appearance as #2 in TFG is at a point in his timestream after he has escaped from them following his sentencing. Is *this* what he might have been talking about?

The Second Doctor is from a point in his life before The War Games in all the multi Doctor stories he's in. Or at least, that's what the show implies. There might be fan theories that say otherwise.
What the Second Doctor is referring to is in all likelihood the First Law of Time, which prohibits Timelords from meeting their former selves.
 
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