do you think TOS should have been remastered?

[WebLurker]

I actually like TOS-R. While I grew up watching the original versions, I think the remastering project came up with some beautiful animation, made the series feel a lot more real, and fixed a lot of mistakes (the inconsistent engine design, the recycling of the Botany Bay for the Woeden in "The Ultimate Computer," etc.).

My only two complaints are that the IKS Gro'th was inconsistent with the design in "Trials and Tribble-ations" (DS9) and I do miss the original Tholian ship in "The Tholan Web" (although I respect the decision to create more consistency with ENT).

P.S.: About "The Doomsday Machine": As I understand it, the CGI planet killer was re-designed to invoke the episode's author's original intent (that it was loaded with weapons, an idea which was revisited in the TNG novel Vendetta). So, the CGI planet killer was designed to look like it had been battle-scarred, had the secondary weapons the author had wanted torn off, and that it had been weathered in it's journey across the void. So, there was some thought to it. In fact, if you look at some of the articles on Memory Alpha, there was actually a lot of thought given to some of the changes made.

 

[Maurice]

God, that model is a piece of crap.

As to the Planet Killer, what Spinrad says he imagined the machine looking like doesn't jibe with what he wrote in the script.

From scene 31:

DECKER​

A hundred times the size of a
starship... a mile long, with
a maw big enough to swallow a
dozen ships... it destroys
planets... cuts them to rubble...
​

And from scene 41:

On the screen, looming large and seen head-on, we see
the Planet-Killer; a great funnel extended before its
huge metallic body as if it were to devour the Enterprise.

SPOCK'S VOICE​

An immense body... a large funnel-
mouth... It looks very much like
Commodore Decker's Planet-killer...
And it is pursuing us!
​

No other details in the script. Spinrad had some a slightly more detailed descriptions in his first draft* story outline (http://www.missionlogpodcast.com/discovereddocuments/035)...

...the Constellation was attacked by a huge metallic creature, which Decker refers to as the "Eater" -- a kind of cylindrical "living atomic rocket" at least ten times the size of the Constellation, apparently from beyond the Galaxy, with a posterior rocket and a great anterior funnel-mouth big enough to swallow a ship with a cluster of atomic blaster beams and tractor beams around the funnel, not a machine, but a living organism with a nuclear metabolism.​

...but the crew works from the script, not the outlines.

 

[Warped9]

If I recall correctly James Blish's adaptation of "The Doomsday Machine" gives a more detailed description of the planet killer reflecting Spinrad's original concept.

 

[RAMA]

Yup exactly. The new Doomsday machine had hints of detail of melted weaponry and the like, just like Spinrad suggested. He did like the new version better.

There's a lot of thought put into the new battle in Doomsday machine, they mapped out the battle and planned the shots accordingly.

I actually like TOS-R. While I grew up watching the original versions, I think the remastering project came up with some beautiful animation, made the series feel a lot more real, and fixed a lot of mistakes (the inconsistent engine design, the recycling of the Botany Bay for the Woeden in "The Ultimate Computer," etc.).

My only two complaints are that the IKS Gro'th was inconsistent with the design in "Trials and Tribble-ations" (DS9) and I do miss the original Tholian ship in "The Tholan Web" (although I respect the decision to create more consistency with ENT).

P.S.: About "The Doomsday Machine": As I understand it, the CGI planet killer was re-designed to invoke the episode's author's original intent (that it was loaded with weapons, an idea which was revisited in the TNG novel Vendetta). So, the CGI planet killer was designed to look like it had been battle-scarred, had the secondary weapons the author had wanted torn off, and that it had been weathered in it's journey across the void. So, there was some thought to it. In fact, if you look at some of the articles on Memory Alpha, there was actually a lot of thought given to some of the changes made.

God, that model is a piece of crap.

.

Well it's better than the balsa wood model. It's a great design, just not filmed all that well or realistic looking. Lots more detail on the new one and a better color.

 

[WebLurker]

God, that model is a piece of crap.

As to the Planet Killer, what Spinrad says he imaged the machine looking like doesn't jibe with what he wrote in the script.

From scene 31:

DECKER​

A hundred times the size of a
starship... a mile long, with
a maw big enough to swallow a
dozen ships... it destroys
planets... cuts them to rubble...​

And from scene 41:

On the screen, looming large and seen head-on, we see
the Planet-Killer; a great funnel extended before its
huge metallic body as if it were to devour the Enterprise.

SPOCK'S VOICE​

An immense body... a large funnel-
mouth... It looks very much like
Commodore Decker's Planet-killer...
And it is pursuing us!​

No other details in the script. Spinrad had some a slightly more detailed descriptions in his first draft* story outline (http://www.missionlogpodcast.com/discovereddocuments/035)...

...the Constellation was attacked by a huge metallic creature, which Decker refers to as the "Eater" -- a kind of cylindrical "living atomic rocket" at least ten times the size of the Constellation, apparently from beyond the Galaxy, with a posterior rocket and a great anterior funnel-mouth big enough to swallow a ship with a cluster of atomic blaster beams and tractor beams around the funnel, not a machine, but a living organism with a nuclear metabolism.​

...but the crew works from the script, not the outlines.

Yeah, I knew that it was only in the outlines not the script. The only point I was making is that the CGI effects (in most cases) were given some thought as to how they should be designed.

 

[Warped9]

If it's cgi then RAMA thinks it's high art.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

You're just digging in. If you can't tell how shitty that model is, then you really need to go pick up some prescription glasses.

You know where that's coming from: some will post anything to support the amateur, revisionist TOS-R mess that cannot stand up to B-level video games, or 50-year old physical model making.

 

[BillJ]

Yup exactly. The new Doomsday machine had hints of detail of melted weaponry and the like, just like Spinrad suggested. He did like the new version better.

Taste is relative, but where are these melted weapons? Looking at the screencaps on TrekCore, I don't see any. Doesn't mean they didn't have some pluses to the new one, I like the seams and the layered look. But in action? It comes across far more cartoon fashion that the original.

 

[Irishman]

I "love" the argument that advancing remastering and CGI techniques are the only way to go....ignoring the fact that the very same techniques will allow for better and cheaper means of cleaning up the original effects as well, keeping them in pace.

I don't know. There are things to like about the original effects and the remastered ones. We can cherry-pick photos to prove our point, but the other side can cherry-pick photos to prove their point.

There's no objective "right" answer. Only preference. For me, some of the original shots are quite jarring, taking me out of the presentation (like the Constellation model looking exactly like a rough clay sculpt as it plowed into the planet killer's mow). The new effects are demonstrably better to me in that case.

 

[Kemaiku]

I know, and for all my poking fun at the original, I had been watching them for 15-16 years when TOS-R came out on Bluray and I grabbed the set as my first BR purchase, I'm still a little "meh" about the remastering these days.

I've watched the new effects less despite seeing the episodes regularly on TV, even 9-10 years later (Wow, it's been nearly ten years since the project was announced near my birthday 2006...)

That birthday, I got a TOS phaser from AA, an Enterprise carrier model over a meter long, TOS-R was going to start soon and we had the teaser for the reboot. It felt like a real TOS themed celebration.

I was hoping for something more faithful to the originals in both counts, I've come to like the new movies although I know they're not popular around here, and was over the moon about the new effects and thinking they'd be the new standard for the series and we wouldn't need the old effects again.

But the excitment kind of wore off after the gimmick of it ended, and I'm happier for both being available more than ever, I find myself watching the older version only if I put the discs on myself.

I'd be fine with a 4K version doing a new (and much more attentive, not better, just attention paid) CGI overhaul to certain things, because I realise I love seeing new interpretations of TOS rather than "replacements" now. But always cleaning the originals up nicely for everyone else.

I feel a little guilty when I say I don't really care about the other shows in this regard and you can do whatever you like to them. As some of the stuff they fixed in TNG actually was a "fix" and not improvement, because someone boo-boo-ed with the first version. DS9 needs some TLC and the more you do to fix VGR and ENT the better.

 

[Maurice]

Well it's better than the balsa wood model. It's a great design, just not filmed all that well or realistic looking. Lots more detail on the new one and a better color.

No it isn't. It destroys the curves of the original and is covered with an absolutely rotten texture map that we wouldn't have accepted when I worked in videogame development in 1999.

 

[Harvey]

If I recall correctly James Blish's adaptation of "The Doomsday Machine" gives a more detailed description of the planet killer reflecting Spinrad's original concept.

Doesn't look like it.

“Commodore Decker’s planet-killer, Captain. It just popped out of subspace. Metallic body, a large funnel-mouth, at least a mile long.

Other descriptions in the short adaptation of the episode also describe the machine as a "funnel."

I'm skeptical of a lot of Spinrad's memories related to the episode, to be honest. What scene is he talking about here, for example? One of these days I need to compare the episode to the shooting script.

Norman Spinrad recalled, “Shatner was nuts at this time. You often have the case where the character takes over the actor. But in Shatner’s case, the actor was taking over the character; because he was so into being the star and there was no way that he was going to let Nimoy steal scenes. Leonard wasn’t trying to do this, but Shatner apparently had this thing where his contract called for him to have more lines of dialogue than anyone else. And he actually sat there with a blue pencil taking Spock lines out of the script. I watched him do this. There was one scene that I wrote where they were talking on the communicator, and it was Kirk to Spock, then Spock to Kirk, then Kirk, then Spock. And Shatner actually took out Spock’s reaction line because it gave Spock one too many lines. Marc Daniels went through five takes but it didn’t work. And I really wasn’t supposed to do it, but I couldn’t stand it anymore, so I pulled Marc over and said, ‘This isn’t working; you need another line in there.’ And he told me we couldn’t have it in there because Shatner was counting the lines, so Spock couldn’t talk. And I said, ‘Well can’t Leonard just grunt?’

 

[Forbin]

There's no objective "right" answer. Only preference. For me, some of the original shots are quite jarring, taking me out of the presentation (like the Constellation model looking exactly like a rough clay sculpt as it plowed into the planet killer's mow). The new effects are demonstrably better to me in that case.

It as actually the AMT model kit on a stick. But yeah, I've always hated that wobbly shot.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I don't know. There are things to like about the original effects and the remastered ones. We can cherry-pick photos to prove our point, but the other side can cherry-pick photos to prove their point.

There's no objective "right" answer. Only preference. For me, some of the original shots are quite jarring, taking me out of the presentation (like the Constellation model looking exactly like a rough clay sculpt as it plowed into the planet killer's mow). The new effects are demonstrably better to me in that case.

There's nothing more jarring that inferior, 1990s video game level CG, where supposedly massive ships do not have any sense of scale or suggested weight, and cannot possibly match the film stock or miniature lighting choices used during the production of TOS.

 

[kkt]

I wouldn't have minded them remastering and just adding a little detail so it would look good in HD and fixing obvious errors... maybe they'll do that for 4k someday. But remastering should be a humble project, not involving lots of creative additions. TOS will always be a 1960s show, and that's nothing to be ashamed of.

 

[RAMA]

If it's cgi then RAMA thinks it's high art.

There's bad CGI out there, of course. What's more important is context and intent. I know the TOS-R SFX are designed to fit into a 60s series..they were never meant to look like this:

Or Eden's FX test, which would have looked too modern.

Taste is relative, but where are these melted weapons? Looking at the screencaps on TrekCore, I don't see any. Doesn't mean they didn't have some pluses to the new one, I like the seams and the layered look. But in action? It comes across far more cartoon fashion that the original.

Most of the TOS-R looks better in motion than in stills (mainly because many still are not even from 1080p) and the new Doomsday Machine a billion times better than the killer cornucopia in papier-mâché. I think you borrowed warped9's magic glasses again.

RAMA

 

[uniderth]

If I had been in charge of a remastering project my goal would have been increasing the resolution of the footage while maintaining the integrity of the original FX shots. CGI models would have matched what already exists they would just look higher resolution. That also means many of the mistakes would be preserved too. For example we wouldn't see an Antares. The "changing" look of the ship due to the reuse of footage would be preserved. The Constellation would keep the AMT design. Maybe do some touch ups like stabilizing the pool shot in "Requiem for Methuselah" or stabilizing the Constellation. But ultimately a remaster, if I was in charge, would have preserved the original work was much as possible. So much so that the VFX shots could still stand as a reference for how it was done in the 60's.

As for the Planet Killer, none of the remade versions I've seen so far look as good as the original. The original has a sort of ghostly, etheric quality. Probably from the use of lighting gels. Neither the shell, or stone look of anybody's attempts at the Planet Killer look as good.

 

[DonIago]

Personally I'm rather glad we got to see things like the Antares and other ships we hadn't seen originally. A minimalist remastering wouldn't have appealed to me as much.

This is of course outside the scope of the quality of the remastering.

 

[J.T.B.]

Personally I'm rather glad we got to see things like the Antares and other ships we hadn't seen originally. A minimalist remastering wouldn't have appealed to me as much.

Antares as conceived and executed by Matt Jefferies et al in the late '60s would have been great. What some other guy thought it should be 40 years later, that doesn't interest me at all.

 

[Kor]

If anyone happens to still have any of the ol' two-episode single disc DVDs, you will notice that the cover says "digitally enhanced and remastered."

So yes, the very word "remaster" is rather vague, as someone else pointed out earlier.

Kor