Do you think Kirk was made captain early

[JarodRussell]

Would he not deserve something pretty major for that?

Woah, dude, in what fantasy world do you live in?

Are we not discussing the reward for saving an entire planet? That's pretty fantastical in the first place. Besides, it's hard to guess, since a medical analogy only very loosely fits a military one, and there's (as far as I know) no precedent for this kind of thing, unless you can come up with an example?

Great argumentation. Why don't you come up with an example that backs up your point?


But let's see... real world... none. The soldier who eventually single handedly catches Osama bin Laden is not allowed to take the 25 million bounty money. And he certainly won't be promoted to General. The guy who finds a cure to AIDS will probably get a Nobel price, and his press fame.

Alan Turing, one of the guys who cracked Enigma and Lorenz and had an actual impact on winning WWII was later sentenced for being homosexual and committed suicide.

Star Trek... TMP... Kirk saved the planet, what did he get? Nothing. 5 years later, he was depressed as hell. TVH... Saved the planet the second time... all he got for that was a few charges dropped, and the got demoted. While that was eventually good for him, he still got demoted. TUC... saved the entire Federation, got retired, lost his ship. Was pretty depressed after that.

What did Picard get for saving the world mutliple times?

 

[SilentP]

Woah, dude, in what fantasy world do you live in?

Are we not discussing the reward for saving an entire planet? That's pretty fantastical in the first place. Besides, it's hard to guess, since a medical analogy only very loosely fits a military one, and there's (as far as I know) no precedent for this kind of thing, unless you can come up with an example?

Great argumentation. Why don't you come up with an example that backs up your point?

The problem is, that there's nothing on the scale of 'saving the planet' to be able to draw a decent comparison, is there? Or undoubtalbe saving an entire country in a single action? But people in the military have been promoted at least for single ranks for far less (not to diminish the accomplishments of those who do, but again, a matter of scale).

For an example of scale of actions one would presumably have to achieve to get promoted, let's take the example of Audi Murphy, the most decorated American of World War 2 (all info is taken off the Wiki, if anyone wishes dispute the veracity of the article, feel free to do so).

Promotion to corporal: Took out 2 escaping Italian officers that were attempting to escape on horseback.

Promotion to sergeant: Squad was ambushed by a german squad, escaped ambush, and resisted further attacks. 3 Germans killed, several captured

He then became a staff sergeant in further fighting in Italy and during the fighting in Southern France, he eventually gained a battlefield promotion to 2nd Lieutenant and Platoon Leader position.

His Medal of Honour citation during the period of fighting in France.

Medal of Honor citation
The official U.S. Army citation for Audie Murphy's Medal of Honor reads:[1][8]
Rank and organization: Second Lieutenant, U.S. Army, Company B 15th Infantry, 3rd Infantry Division. Place and date: Near Holtzwihr France, January 26, 1945. Entered service at: Dallas, Texas. Birth: Hunt County, near Kingston, Texas, G.O. No. 65, August 9, 1944. Citation: Second Lt. Murphy commanded Company B, which was attacked by six tanks and waves of infantry. 2d Lt. Murphy ordered his men to withdraw to a prepared position in a woods, while he remained forward at his command post and continued to give fire directions to the artillery by telephone. Behind him, to his right, one of our tank destroyers received a direct hit and began to burn. Its crew withdrew to the woods. 2d Lt. Murphy continued to direct artillery fire, which killed large numbers of the advancing enemy infantry. With the enemy tanks abreast of his position, 2d Lt. Murphy climbed on the burning tank destroyer, which was in danger of blowing up at any moment, and employed its .50 caliber machine gun against the enemy. He was alone and exposed to German fire from three sides, but his deadly fire killed dozens of Germans and caused their infantry attack to waver. The enemy tanks, losing infantry support, began to fall back. For an hour the Germans tried every available weapon to eliminate 2d Lt. Murphy, but he continued to hold his position and wiped out a squad that was trying to creep up unnoticed on his right flank. Germans reached as close as 10 yards, only to be mowed down by his fire. He received a leg wound, but ignored it and continued his single-handed fight until his ammunition was exhausted. He then made his way back to his company, refused medical attention, and organized the company in a counterattack, which forced the Germans to withdraw. His directing of artillery fire wiped out many of the enemy; he killed or wounded about 50. 2d Lt. Murphy's indomitable courage and his refusal to give an inch of ground saved his company from possible encirclement and destruction, and enabled it to hold the woods which had been the enemy's objective.[1][8]

Those who wish for more details can look him up.

Now this is one of the most decorated soldiers of that time. 2nd most visited war memorial for the Americans. And he didn't save a planet from destruction.

Are honestly telling me, that a person who saves an entire planet and population of BILLIONS only deserves to graduate?

 

[JarodRussell]

But being commanding officer of a starship, or aircraft carrier, involves far more than just sitting around in that chair. Why can't you see that?

A platoon contains about 50 soldiers. The new Enterprise probably more than 800.

I'm not argueing that he shouldn't have gotten all the medals they have. But giving him command of a starship after 3 days is way too much, far too ridiculous (now if you ask "More ridiculous than beaming?", I'm going to kill a kitten).

As you said, Audi is the the most decorated American of World War 2. He did some heroic acts and got medals for it, that's all. He wasn't promoted from sergeant to general. And he wouldn't have been, even if he had killed Hitler and all Nazis on the world with his bare hands as a one man army.


And why did Kirk get all the honors? What's with Spock? Scotty? Chekov? Chekov was actually the one who came up with the plan of beaming aboard and stuff. Why didn't that genius get his own starship?

 

[SilentP]

But let's see... real world... none. The soldier who eventually single handedly catches Osama bin Laden is not allowed to take the 25 million bounty money.

I find that odd, but then again, sometimes the real world makes less sense that the fictional.

And he certainly won't be promoted to General.

Though Colonel would be the appropriate rank here, true it's unlikely, but the situation in the film would be more analogous to a fresh minted Naval officer taking over his ship after the main officers being taken out, and stopping a rogue nuclear sub.

The guy who finds a cure to AIDS will probably get a Nobel price, and his press fame.

And probably lots of other things besides that.

Alan Turing, one of the guys who cracked Enigma and Lorenz and had an actual impact on winning WWII was later sentenced for being homosexual and committed suicide.

A veritable lack of justice, which the British Government has only recently apologised for.

Star Trek... TMP... Kirk saved the planet, what did he get? Nothing.

Which I think isn't very good.

5 years later, he was depressed as hell.

Because he was stuck in a desk job as an Admiral and realising how much he missed being a captain.

TVH... Saved the planet the second time... all he got for that was a few charges dropped, and the got demoted.

Politics. In this case interstellar. In the case of the new Trek film, it wouldn't surprise me that domestic politics would have ensured that Kirk got a high promotion.

While that was eventually good for him, he still got demoted. TUC... saved the entire Federation, got retired, lost his ship. Was pretty depressed after that.

Probably because he was getting to the point where Starfleet didn't want him around anymore.

And in this case, just prevented a diplomatic sabotage. It may of resulted in the Federation losing a war, but it wasn't a moment like V'ger or the Narada hanging directly over Earth, ready to rain down destruction. And rewards aren't done on a hindsight manner, i.e. "Ah, he managed to take the bullet for a the guy who eventually led us to victory in a campaign 10 years later, lets give him a promotion/medal."

What did Picard get for saving the world mutliple times?

He's turned down multiple offers to be promoted, as has Riker.

 

[SilentP]

But being commanding officer of a starship, or aircraft carrier, involves far more than just sitting around in that chair. Why can't you see that?

I didn't say or even imply that it's just about sitting in the chair. And it's not like the character was just sitting in the chair either, was it? He did go to the Academy for a reason, so he actually understands what's the main areas of command knowledge are.

And he wasn't exactly just sitting a chair either, was he? He was doing orbital insertion drops, braving transwarp transporter beams (twice), leading a two man infiltration of a enemy filled starship, and commanding the entire effort too.

A platoon contains about 50 soldiers. The new Enterprise probably more than 800.

I'm not argueing that he shouldn't have gotten all the medals they have. But giving him command of a starship after 3 days is way too much, far too ridiculous (now if you ask "More ridiculous than beaming?", I'm going to kill a kitten).

I won't make the 'more ridiculous than beaming' comment, since that's not applicable to the argument either way.

And why did he get all the honors? What's with Spock? Scotty? Chekov? Chekov was actually the one who came up with the plan of beaming aboard and stuff. Why didn't that genius get his own starship?

The rest of the command crew would also be getting their own honours too (would have been nice to see them getting decorated, but then TOS Trek has been about Kirk mainly, with Spock and McCoy as his main go-to guys).

For the record, Chekov only came up with how to enter the system undetected, which enabled the plan that Kirk was trying to achieve (i.e. sneak aboard the Narada). Chekov would/should at least get a promotion to lieutenant as well. Who knows, maybe Chekov was another cadet that was 'rushed graduated' like the rest (note how Uhura has a rank of Lieutenant), and since he's not on command track, he starts off as an ensign.

As for Scotty, I think going from manning a godsforsaken outpost to being chief engineer of the fleet's flagship is a major step up for him. He gets to get his hands on those ample nacelles as much as he likes now And he's removed the black mark against his name that a certain Admiral is adamant about keeping on him.

Spock is the only one whose left essentially in status quo.

 

[Vigilance]

Great argumentation. Why don't you come up with an example that backs up your point?

Jimmy Doolittle went from Lt. Colonel to Brigadier General in two days after his raid and two months later was commanding the 12th Air Force in North Africa.

 

[Shazam!]

Yes, it was early. No, it didn't ruin the movie for me.

Yeah, there were plenty of other things that ruined the movie.

 

[A beaker full of death]

I've just realised there is a precedent set within the Star Trek universe for cadets still at the Academy being referred to as Lieutenants*, this precedent being Saavik.

It seems pretty clear that Saavik was in command school, having finished her four years at the academy.
See, e.g., http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhGaUEWtUNU

 

[Aike]

He was made captain because he is James T. Kirk. Simple as that.

 

[Bertie]

Sure, it is a little silly. But from a practical out-of-universe standpoint, I doubt there's any other way.

He has to be captain of the ship in the next movie, and for that matter, the rest of the characters have to be "where they are supposed to be" as well. This is a reboot, not an "Academy Years" (or "Lower Decks") type prequel series.

Furthermore, the "Three Years Later" (or "Ten Years Later") screen some are advocating has real storytelling implications. When you flash "Three Years Later" up there, the audience quite rightly thinks, "Gee, we're skipping three years? I wonder what happened in those three years? Like, are Uhura and Spock married? Did he ever get his rage under control? How are Old Spock and that Colony going? Heck, there must have been a whole lot of adventures on in these three years (and they must have gone pretty well that he's getting this promotion), and we're just going to skip all that? That's a little anti-climatic".

And there's implications for the writers of the next movie, too. As it stands, they could if they desired, pick up right where the first film left off. Or not; its all up to them. "Three Years Later" takes away some of that flexibility. Sure, you can use flashbacks or any number of other techniques to fill in that time, if needed, but why make them have to do it at all if they don't want to?

Now, you might argue that any of these disadvantages are pretty minor. And you'd probably be right. But the advantages to non-promotion or "Three Years Later" are even more minor, too. So minor that — let's be honest here — only people like us nerdraging on the Internet really care about what rank Kirk is. But the alternatives affect the story for everyone.

 

[Yeoman Randi]

<snip>


As I said, what they did with Kirk in this movie is a nerd's wet dream.

Then i guess arguing for five months about how wrong it was to do this in a movie would be yours?

 

[Mach5]

Real life precedent!
(Don't know if this has been mentioned before)

Stephen Decatur, Jr (5 January 1779 – 22 March 1820)

Promoted directly from Lieutenant to Captain at age 25 due to heroism, and even commanded the Enterprise herself once!

From Wikipedia:

That vessel, taken into the U.S. Navy under the name Intrepid, was used by Decatur on 16 February 1804 to execute a night raid into Tripoli harbor to destroy the U.S. frigate Philadelphia, which had been captured after running aground at the end of October 1803. Admiral Lord Nelson is said to have called this "the most bold and daring act of the Age". This daring and extremely successful operation made Lieutenant Decatur an immediate national hero, a status that was enhanced by his courageous conduct during the 3 August 1804 bombardment of Tripoli. In that action, he led his men in hand-to-hand fighting while boarding and capturing an enemy gunboat. Decatur was subsequently promoted to the rank of captain, and over the next eight years had command of several frigates.

 

[JarodRussell]

<snip>


As I said, what they did with Kirk in this movie is a nerd's wet dream.

Then i guess arguing for five months about how wrong it was to do this in a movie would be yours?

Guess I hit a nerdy nerve.

Real life precedent!

Finally something useful! Thanks!

 

[startrekrcks]

well maybe they wanted him to end up as Captain Kirk and the crew but it happened too fast.

 

[SilentP]

Vigilance and Mach5, nice examples there

I've just realised there is a precedent set within the Star Trek universe for cadets still at the Academy being referred to as Lieutenants*, this precedent being Saavik.

It seems pretty clear that Saavik was in command school, having finished her four years at the academy.
See, e.g., http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhGaUEWtUNU

Nice video, pity I never had a computer at the time capable of playing that game. That aside however, there was no indication in either TWOK or ST09 that there were specific command schools that would require previous completion of the Starfleet Academy.

It would be likely that instead of taking courses for specific departments (i.e. sciences, engineering), there would be courses tailored for officers on the Command track (dialogue references in the TV series, either DS9 or TNG, can't remember which, unless I'm thinking of novels) refer to Command as a separate department.

There would still need to be the standard courses that all cadets must complete, regardless of department (such as basics in starship control, repair/maintainance etc.) and it would be surprising that those on the command track may be expected to do a lot more in their 4 years over the normal Academy 4 years that non-command cadets go through. Such pressure would be part of the responsibility of those who want command.

 

[Delta1]

As I said, what they did with Kirk in this movie is a nerd's wet dream.

Exactly. In the real world, achieving a senior leadership position in a large organization requires years of experience, or at least a convincing case that one is capable of managing a large organization. In the military, it also requires years of formal military education after the commissioning phase. Command isn't a prize you get for having an eye-catching bullet point on your CV. It's a responsibility granted to someone who has both proven themselves competent at the lower levels of responsibility and proven through formal military education their mastery of the doctrine appropriate to the rank and branch they're entering.

Nerds are often overlooked (generalizing), and our wet dream is that we will some day do something so incredible that people will have to pay attention to us. We will save the world/save a kitten/start an internet meme, and then we'll be so famous we'll get the same social standing as all those boorish alpha males in charge without having to do all that icky work they do. In the case of Star Trek, this desire for social standing without work gives us Acting Ensign Wesley Crusher and Little Captain Kirk. It gives us heroes whose brilliance blinds their lessers, who then elevate those heroes to their rightful places.

As for Doolittle, the man had led a distinguished career, both on active duty and in the reserves, before the Doolittle Raid. He had done a great deal to advance the art and science of flight, had studied Air Corps organization, and had studied foreign air forces. He had a doctorate from MIT. He had overseen the conversion of factories to produce planes. In short, he was a proven officer who had a long record of great responsibility and intimate knowledge of every aspect of air war, from building planes to flying them to organizing them into air forces. And then he planned and executed a raid against an enemy capital. In the NuTrekVerse, that record probably would've gotten him promoted to Supreme Grand Admiral of NuStarfleet and the Starfleets of All Other Universes (Upper Half).

 

[Brutal Strudel]

Far as I'm concerned, he should have been captain the minute he slid out of Mama Kirk. Why wait? We know he's destined for greatness--it's all so Campbellian.

 

[Geckothan]

Anyone who doesn't think he was made a captain a bit too early is deluding themselves.

 

[M'Sharak]

Far as I'm concerned, he should have been captain the minute he slid out of Mama Kirk. Why wait? We know he's destined for greatness--it's all so Campbellian.

That's what it comes down to, ultimately: it's got nothing to do with the way the real-world military works and everything to do with the fact that he's James Tee Fucking-A Kirk, and he's going to be captain by the end of the movie. One might fault the filmmakers for the way they chose to get from A to B, but it's also possible to think of any number of excruciatingly fanwanky and canon-happy ways it could have been done far worse than what we got.

Anyone who doesn't think he was made a captain a bit too early is deluding themselves.

Dial it down a couple of numbers, there, Sparky -- you're running a little too close to "troll" again. Keep it about the movie and not about other posters and their supposed mental states, 'K?

 

[Jerikka Dawn]

The Enterprise is the Flagship, isn't it? Who's to say that Admiral Pike doesn't have an office onboard the ship to keep an eye on everything while Kirk captains the ship? That is how it's done on a flagship, isn't it?