Do you see the Maquis differently today?

[DonIago]

I'm going to avoid RL examples and stick with post-scarcity 24th century. The people who colonize planets do so in order to have something to do. They work because they want to "improve themselves" as Picard said and Jake Sisko was made fun of by Nog. You settle Planet Alpha-Alpha Gamma because you want to have a town that's named after you and help do something productive so that in 200 years, a planet is a thriving colony and you built that. You probably hold Earthlings in justified (?) contempt for being a bunch of people who do nothing with their lives.

Then Starfleet shows up and all the 10-20 years of work you've put in colonizing a place is demolished and you're told it was for nothing. You're moved back to Earth. Maybe your neighbors are moved to Mars. All you've done is gone and every bond you've made is scattered.

Oh and it's because the Space Nazis get your world. Maybe you'd want to say, "No."



The Federation greatly misjudged the situation with the Cardassians and we saw how it all ended up with the Dominion War. The Federation believed that they could exert economic and political pressure to force them to come to peaceful terms but every time we see them, they're breaking a treaty or plotting evil. Because they're based on the Nazis. The Federation did successfully negotiate the surrender of Bajor and that's good but the Maquis got a bum deal.

But what I don't get is why the Federation thinks its their job to go after the Maquis. The Maquis have given up their Federation citizenship.

They are not the UPF's problem anymore.

FWIW, I imagine the UFP might have intervened in Maquis conflicts because: a) they felt that was preferable to letting the Cardassians deal with the colonists on their own, b) the treaty probably stipulated that the Feds would get involved at that point, and part of being the good guys is that you honor your treaty obligations even if the other side is being less than entirely good about honoring their side, and most importantly c) the whole point of the treaty was to avoid a war which would cost more lives, and treaty violations such as the Maquis arming themselves threatened just such a war.

If the Dominion hadn't entered the picture then the Maquis might have even gotten their own independent state in light of a weakened Cardassia, especially if they could become a Klingon protectorate or such. Once the Dominion became a factor though, there was zero chance the Maquis were going to retain any disputed planets.

 

[Charles Phipps]

The Briar Patch has the same issue that I attribute to Ellie in THE LAST OF US. You have an incredibly unique and fundamentally irreplaceable resource.

Don't harvest it.

Study it.

 

[publiusr]

Remnants escaping the Alpha quadrant, or emerging to disrupt the Federation might explain the PICARD era distopia:

“Look at what your noble Federation did to us!”

 

[Charles Phipps]

Remnants escaping the Alpha quadrant, or emerging to disrupt the Federation might explain the PICARD era distopia:

“Look at what your noble Federation did to us!”

I feel like that would be some especially sour grapes given it was the Dominion and Cardassians who annihilated them.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Briar Patch has the same issue that I attribute to Ellie in THE LAST OF US. You have an incredibly unique and fundamentally irreplaceable resource.

Don't harvest it.

Study it.

I'm dying.

Nothing much to do about it.

Unless I eat another baby.

 

[publiusr]

They always make more...

 

[Charles Phipps]

I think perhaps the best element of the Maquis is the fact that it illustrates the sometimes imperceptible hypocrisies and gray areas of Deep Space Nine that even our heroes are often unaware of. The crew largely approves and appreciates the Bajoran Resistance while Sisko as well as O'Brian strongly dislike the Maquis. Kira is the only one who doesn't really see any difference whatsoever.

 

[DonIago]

Personally I see plenty of differences, but I think I've probably made my views clear in prior posts and I don't really want to rehash unless anyone feels that would be constructive.

 

[Lynx]

No!

I liked them and supported their cause then and I still do today.

 

[Farscape One]

I think perhaps the best element of the Maquis is the fact that it illustrates the sometimes imperceptible hypocrisies and gray areas of Deep Space Nine that even our heroes are often unaware of. The crew largely approves and appreciates the Bajoran Resistance while Sisko as well as O'Brian strongly dislike the Maquis. Kira is the only one who doesn't really see any difference whatsoever.

Inteteresting point about Kira and the others. But I think that was her initial view, which was before we discover they became actual Maquis. And O'Brien didn't disapprove of the Maquis... in "FOR THE CAUSE", he was voicing sympathy toward them when he said they were just fighting for their homes.

There are a lot of little differences, but the big difference between the Maquis and the Bajorans during the Occupation? The Cardassians invaded their homeworld and system and never ventured outside their system to attack the Cardassians. The Maquis, which was the turning point for my opinion on them becoming full on terrorists and not freedom fighters, went outside their worlds and systems to attack Cardassians. One Bajorans were fighting defensively, the Maquis... very offensively and aggressively. Had the Maquis fought in their own systems, my opinion would never have changed and I would root for them to win the entire time.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Inteteresting point about Kira and the others. But I think that was her initial view, which was before we discover they became actual Maquis. And O'Brien didn't disapprove of the Maquis... in "FOR THE CAUSE", he was voicing sympathy toward them when he said they were just fighting for their homes.

There are a lot of little differences, but the big difference between the Maquis and the Bajorans during the Occupation? The Cardassians invaded their homeworld and system and never ventured outside their system to attack the Cardassians. The Maquis, which was the turning point for my opinion on them becoming full on terrorists and not freedom fighters, went outside their worlds and systems to attack Cardassians. One Bajorans were fighting defensively, the Maquis... very offensively and aggressively. Had the Maquis fought in their own systems, my opinion would never have changed and I would root for them to win the entire time.

Eh, I'm not sure that's an actual difference unless you think that any French Resistance fighters should never join in the attack against Germany after they are liberated by the Allies. The Cardassian government was carrying out attacks against the Maquis worlds and you need to defeat them in order to drive them back from your homes.

Oddly, Gandalf and Aragorn discuss this in the cartoon Return of the King.

"Do you sit here to endure siege after siege or march out to be overwhelmed?"

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The Maquis have no actual ability to defeat the Cardassian Union but they can keep them on the defensive until they either come to terms or give up.

 

[DonIago]

Evidently the Maquis did make enough of a difference that, combined with the Klingon attacks, it was enough to lead the Cardassians to embrace an alliance with the Dominion. Now how much of that was the Maquis and how much of it was the Klingons is a bit unclear, but Sisko at least seemed to think the Maquis had made a difference...just not the difference they were hoping to make.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Evidently the Maquis did make enough of a difference that, combined with the Klingon attacks, it was enough to lead the Cardassians to embrace an alliance with the Dominion. Now how much of that was the Maquis and how much of it was the Klingons is a bit unclear, but Sisko at least seemed to think the Maquis had made a difference...just not the difference they were hoping to make.

Ironically, minus Gowron, the Cardassians would have had a civilian government. So the Maquis actually helped cause the Cardassians to try to have a "good" revolution.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

There was at least one Bajoran resistance cell that took to attacking Cardassians outside the Bajor system, too. If they were an exception, it likely had more to do with the Bajorans not being able to get outside their system reliably because it was too hard to get ships on Bajor unless the Cardassians approved.

 

[Farscape One]

There was at least one Bajoran resistance cell that took to attacking Cardassians outside the Bajor system, too. If they were an exception, it likely had more to do with the Bajorans not being able to get outside their system reliably because it was too hard to get ships on Bajor unless the Cardassians approved.

I remember there being a mention of only one Bajoran who attacked the Cardassians offworld, but it was still in their own system.

And to respond to a response of my post... the French were liberated and I agreed they should take an active part in that war.

But the Maquis on DS9 did not have a government come help free them from an oppressive force. Like I said, I was completely on board with them until they started attacking planets and ships outside their colonies and systems. Even the Cardassians didn't use a biogenic weapon on the Maquis worlds. Had the Cardassians done things like that first, my view would be quite different.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Evidently the Maquis did make enough of a difference that, combined with the Klingon attacks, it was enough to lead the Cardassians to embrace an alliance with the Dominion. Now how much of that was the Maquis and how much of it was the Klingons is a bit unclear, but Sisko at least seemed to think the Maquis had made a difference...just not the difference they were hoping to make.

No.

Gul Dukat used the Dominion to achieve his goals, and take power.

Cardassia and the Cardassian government were blindsided by this power grab and key members were probably whacked during the transition to make room for Dukat and his people.

 

[DonIago]

^And yet plenty of Cardassians seemed willing to embrace their new Dominion overlords...or too afraid to do anything about them for years.

In the end, Cardassians liked winning, and Dukat brought them wins for awhile.

 

[DonIago]

Ironically, minus Gowron, the Cardassians would have had a civilian government. So the Maquis actually helped cause the Cardassians to try to have a "good" revolution.

Whether Gowron would have even attacked Cardassia if Fauxtok hadn't talked him up to doing so is a fair question as well.

One wonders whether the Dominion were canny enough that they instigated the Klingon attack on Cardassia precisely in order to weaken the Cardassians enough that Dukat or another nutjob would turn to the Dominion to regain their lost glory.

Apparently Dukat's narcissism extends to the point that even when he knows the Klingon attacks on Cardassia may have been instigated by the Dominion, he's still willing to jump into bed with them.

In the end, it's a classic case of the AQ powers not being able to see the forest for the trees. If the AQ powers had been able to put aside their disputes in favor of the much larger threat the Dominion represented, millions of deaths might have been prevented. Luckily for them the Feds-Klingons had a preexisting alliance that ultimately survived the Dominion's attempt to undermine them, and that Sisko "could live with it".

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I remember there being a mention of only one Bajoran who attacked the Cardassians offworld, but it was still in their own system.

No, we only saw one member of the resistance cell who carried out the raid. That doesn't mean he carried it out alone, and the fact it was called a 'raid' makes it obvious that he wasn't alone. Also, the fact that it was called 'the first offworld raid against the Cardassians' is clear proof that other raids happened, too.

And the target was a planet called 'Pullock V' and there was never the slightest indication that it was in the Bajoran system (according to standard Trek naming conventions, one would expect it to be the fifth planet in the Pullock system). Apparently there was a novel written (Night of the Wolves) that touched on it which said it was the fourth planet in the Pullock system and a Cardassian owned and operated planet and the location of a Cardassian prison camp. It also says 9 people participated in the raid.

 

[Sci]

The Maquis were little more than a crude replica of the Cardassians they supposedly abhorred.

I'm sorry, but no. You can't compare a resistance movement to a state that killed millions of people and operated forced labor camps.

My take on the Maquis is that they're always having a different conversation with the Federation than the Federation is having with them. I also take in the context of Deep Space Nine that the Federation isn't automatically right and that the show is broadly supportive of the Bajoran Resistance while simultaneously quite aware that they engaged in terrorism. The Bajoran Resistance were heroic freedom fighters and, yes, did occasionally blow up people who folded shirts and other war crimes.

War is ugly in Deep Space Nine and maybe Starfleet is so used to dealing with good faith actors that they forget just how ugly it can get. Part of what was established about the Maquis in TNG (and the Bajoran Resistance as well) is the fact that the Cardassians are bad faith actors. The Federation lives up to its treaties and promises with 100% certainty while the Cardassians constantly break every promise they make.

I feel that's something that in 2020 feels appropriate for the political discourse regarding certain political factions but doesn't really change my opinion.

The Maquis left the Federation to live on planets that they'd been allowed to live on by the Cardassians and fought a guerilla war against them when the Cardassians broke their word. This is, officially, not the Federation's problem anymore. However, the Federation considers them criminals for their activities and attempts to stop them. All the while as the Cardassians are supplying their own colonists with weapons and supplies.

Because the word of fascists is worthless.

The Federation has, unwittingly, taken a side in a conflict just by trying not to take a side. They don't recognize the Maquis as a nation but the nation exists whether its on paper or not. It reminds me of groups in Syria and other places where the United States' presence changes the dynamic just by its existence.

I think the ending of the Maquis also is brutal and could have used some more analysis as we only really get it dealt with in a few places. Because the Maquis colonies are exterminated in the end. Had Bajor been occupied, the Dominion would have killed everyone on Bajor and said, "There, the planet is yours." It's not a refutation of the Maquis but its an exceptionally dark end and shows just what sort of people the Federation was dealing with.

And really, the Federation is the one who brought the Dominion not the other way around. Sisko says the Maquis pushed the Cardassians too far but it was the Federation poking the Gamma Quadrant that brought about the invasion.

I broadly agree with this, except that I do not think the Federation "brought the Dominion." The Federation stayed away from Dominion space once contact was established, and the Dominion made its intention to conquer the Alpha Quadrant clear from that same moment.