Do you see the Maquis differently today?

[kkt]

On earth, energy is infinite. Space is not. They are raising a new fricking continent from the sea floor. TNG family.

On a colony world space is relatively infinite, 100s of square miles per colonist, but energy is not. They show up with a lot of deturium, and then have to figure out how to "find" more (deturium is heavy water) before their original stock piles run out.

Less fact based, I don't think a lot of humans are allowed to live on earth, since as the seat of the Federation you need a very high security clearance to stay there like the original conditions of washington dc. Land gifted by other states, and a population of mostly clerks and politicians. Earth's deed was given to the Federation. The continuing human claim to this planet is tolerated.

If your clearance is low, and you suck, and no one will vouch for you, you and 20 thousand other similar degenerates might be asked to abandon mother earth for the frontier because the air you are breathing could be used more wisely for more bolian clerks or andorian politicians.

Joe Sisko and Rene Picard were curators for historical/heritage land marks. They are not simple small business men, because there is no money or private property on Earth.

I agree that there is a conflict between apparent paradise on Earth and what motivates anyone to go out and colonize in dangerous or unpleasant conditions. I don't think there's any support for the idea that you need a security clearance to live on Earth, though.

For that matter, that's not what Washington DC was ever like. In the 1770s the land was rural, some farmed and some swamp, with a town Georgetown. Now a lot of people do office work of various sorts because that's what the jobs are, but there are also a lot of people engaged in retail sales, running hotels, restaurants, and all the trades that keep cities running. You don't need a security clearance just to be in Washington or to visit most of the government buildings, just certain ones where highly classified work is done. The most obvious sensitive buildings are not even in DC: the Pentagon, CIA, and NSA headquarters.

Yes, there's clearly more going on to keep Rene Picard and Joe Sisko operating than just free enterprise capitalism. Star Trek is careful not to be too specific, because of the likelihood of offending some of the audience and that if they really knew how to make the economics work they'd probably be in politics making it happen instead of making a TV show.

Maybe if you're not a farmer, rancher, etc. on Earth in Star Trek's time you get a 1000 square foot apartment. (For the traditional units challenged, that's a one or two bedroom - not a big apartment by any means, but it's bigger than the efficiency apartments the working class get in expensive cities now.) If you want more space you colonize. Most colonies we assume are not as unpleasant as they got for the Maquis.

 

[Sci]

One mistake.

In TNG Journies End all the Federation colonists who decided to stay in Cardassian space, became Cardassian citizens. If the Federation stepped into Cardassian space to stand between two groups of squabbling Cardassians, even if some of them are human, that there is an act of war.

"Journey's End" only established this for one colony.

Nothing in TNG or DS9 established that every Federation colony in the DMZ came under Cardassian jurisdiction. The DMZ was supposed to extend over both sides' colonies.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The journey's end colony was not in the dmz. It was in Cardassian space. This was. Precident.Cardassia wanted human colonists. It was fantastic PR, that made the Federation look like shitrags.

 

[Sisko_is_my_captain]

Maybe if you're not a farmer, rancher, etc. on Earth in Star Trek's time you get a 1000 square foot apartment. (For the traditional units challenged, that's a one or two bedroom - not a big apartment by any means, but it's bigger than the efficiency apartments the working class get in expensive cities now.) If you want more space you colonize. Most colonies we assume are not as unpleasant as they got for the Maquis.

To build on your 1000 sq ft example, a future home would likely do more with that amount of space than a 21st century apartment could. No need for a kitchen or a laundry (replicators); less storage needs; sleeker electronics and utilities built into walls... A 24th century apartment probably frees up 40% more useful space compared to the same sq footage today.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

And that last part is why I can't condone the Maquis, or at least Eddington's radical branch of the Maquis...because defending your homes is one thing, but if it causes a war that will kill thousands of people and likely destroy your home in the process anyway...to me, that shows a real disregard for other peoples' welfare.

I don't disagree with the moral concept underlying this statement, but I do think the information available in the franchise makes it somewhat questionable whether it really applies to the maquis situation. There are times in the real world where accepting that war, right now, is unavoidable because there is a specific warmongering group that will not change may actually save more lives in the long run. Ie, you can't actually prevent war by appeasing Hitler, etc.

What exactly the situation is in the Trek universe is hard to say, but we've had enough vague references about Cardassian Wars (plural) that one could easily imagine a scenario where the Cardassians have been making and breaking promises repeatedly in order to get their way in the short term knowing all the while that the Federation is predisposed to do the same thing all over again a few years later if the Cardassians just start the war up again. If a maquis said it was the Federation position that would lead to the most loss of life because the Cardassians would just keep coming back over and over again as long as the Federation keeps giving into them, I'm not sure we could actually prove them wrong. (Though maybe there are some specific key references somewhere that I've forgotten.)

----

In regards to the question of why people want to leave earth and settle on colonies I would say there is an additional factor to consider beyond space, something which I realized while rewatching 'This Side of Paradise', so I'll just add here what I wrote about it when I first realized it:

"From a certain point of view, they really are in paradise. And yet, when the spores are removed, the first thing Sandoval realizes is that they've accomplished nothing. I think that's an incredible insight into humanity - the struggle between wanting paradise vs wanting achievement, which is the one thing you fundamentally can't have in paradise."

So, presumably, Earth being not quite as much a paradise in the classical sense, you can actually have some sort of achievement there. But the bar is definitely set high, what with the entire planet being free of serious need or want and overflowing with super-high ranking diplomats, officers, brilliant engineers, top chefs, etc. People who perhaps aren't at the absolute top of their field or who want the opportunity to really stand out in ways that simply won't be possible for 99% of anyone on Earth could very easily find a lot more personal fulfillment in the challenge of colony life.

 

[Admiral2]

Simple question, what with all of the protests currently going down. Do you see the Maquis differently today than you did when DS9 first aired? Let's maybe focus on the DS9 Maquis vs anything Voyager brought to the table, shall we?

I just watched Blaze of Glory for the first time in a long time, and I think that if it was made today, they might show the Maquis in an even more sympathetic light.

I always sympathized with the Maquis. They were right in their assertions about the Federation. I still believe that today. I don't need what's happening in the world today to justify my view on the subject.

 

[Roundabout]

The colonists were given the options of relocating or staying on those worlds with a full understanding of what that would entail, and they chose the latter. The Feds didn't just say "Congrats, you're Cardassian citizens now," and portraying the situation in a way that makes it seem as though the colonists had no choice seems a bit disingenuous to me.

The Feds chose the treaty because they felt it was preferable to a war that would have likely claimed far more lives and might have ended up with one or both powers in an even worse scenario. No points for guessing that the colonies probably would have been a flashpoint for attacks as well.

The irony was that the Federation wound up fighting a bloody all out war with the Cardassians, anyway.


In "The Maquis", Kira, of all people, gave a memorable speech about the Maquis situation. It was actually an insightful observation.

This is what she said to Sisko.
KIRA: But I lived with them for twenty six years before the liberation came. Every Bajoran lived with them in constant fear. I know what those colonists are going through. Most of all, I know that the Cardassians can't be trusted to keep their side of the bargain in this treaty. ...
I can tell you one thing for certain. The Cardassians are the enemy, not your own colonists, and if Starfleet can't understand that, then the Federation is even more naive than I already think it is.


By signing away their home planets to a fascistic adversary, the Federation sold out their colonists. The Feds treated their own settlers like pawns. No consultation. It was a cruel fait accompli. And then the Feds all but abandoned the settlers to their fate under the boot of the Cardassians.

What made the sell out appear even more egregious was that the Federation seemed to be in a stronger position than Cardassia. Maybe the Feds had lousy callous negotiators.

When the Cardassians began to terrorize the settlers and didn't abide by the treaty in good faith (which was probably inevitable), it was natural that the settlers would defend themselves.

The Federation handled the whole situation badly.

To the OP's question, I don't view the Maquis much differently today than when I first saw the Maquis episodes. However, the Maquis storyline do make me think of a real world event that took place in the mid 2000s in the middle east.

 

[DonIago]

I'm not sure how many times it needs to be reiterated that the colonists could have relocated.

 

[WesleysDisciple]

I Sympathized and still sympathize with the Maquis

but like with John brown their goals may be admirable but they may not be going about it in a good way though like him they may be simply using the tools placed in their hands.

 

[Tosk]

I'm not sure how many times it needs to be reiterated that the colonists could have relocated.

It depends. Are we supposed to think that forced displacement is a good thing?

 

[DonIago]

If you choose to live next to a hostile power, don't be surprised if sooner or later the fact that you're living next to a hostile power becomes a point of contention?

Did the colonists at any point actually spend any time thinking about the realities of their situation?

 

[Tosk]

Did the colonists at any point actually spend any time thinking about the realities of their situation?

Perhaps they thought that they were living within the Federation, and that no one would ever dream of kicking them out of their homes just because they lived near a bad neighborhood. What's the point of a border if you can't live safely on your side of it?

 

[DonIago]

Perhaps you could ask that question of people living near borders in the Middle East?

 

[kkt]

I thought they were telling the story of the Sinai. Part of Egypt that was occupied by Israel, settlers built villages there, and then in a peace deal Israel relocated the settlers back into Israel and gave the land back to Egypt. The peace between Egypt and Israel lasts today, which cannot be said of relations between Israel and its other neighbors.

Being resettled is not pleasant, but sometimes it's necessary. My parents were living in Oakland, in their first apartment. The land was forcibly acquired, not to make peace, but just to make a freeway. As they were renting, my parents didn't even get relocation expenses.

 

[Tosk]

Perhaps you could ask that question of people living near borders in the Middle East?

Does that mean that you think anyone in the Middle East whose home is threatened by nearby forces should just move somewhere else? If so, at what point is it okay for them to defend their homes? ...Or is it ever okay for them to defend their home?

Being resettled is not pleasant, but sometimes it's necessary. My parents were living in Oakland, in their first apartment. The land was forcibly acquired, not to make peace, but just to make a freeway. As they were renting, my parents didn't even get relocation expenses.

Yep, plenty of people do get forcibly moved. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of Americans who would try and put up a fight to keep their home. Even though they decided that they had no recourse, I bet your parents weren't happy about being forced out. Who would be?

 

[kkt]

Does that mean that you think anyone in the Middle East whose home is threatened by nearby forces should just move somewhere else? If so, at what point is it okay for them to defend their homes? ...Or is it ever okay for them to defend their home?

Yep, plenty of people do get forcibly moved. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of Americans who would try and put up a fight to keep their home. Even though they decided that they had no recourse, I bet your parents weren't happy about being forced out. Who would be?

They were't happy about it, but they didn't start an armed uprising.

 

[Jetboogieman]

The one thing that’s always bothered me about the Maquis is something that’s bothered me in general throughout all of Star Trek.

Colonies.

Now it’s just a TV Show and many Colony stories always provided some nice stories throughout all the series but we see some of these places in varying degrees of development and to be honest in the back of my mind of each of these episodes I’m always a bit bothered like, many are shown to be rough frontiers where life is much harder than say, on Earth but the real question is why?

Surely with the resources of the Federation and Replicators alone, life should never be difficult and if it was, why the hell would anyone want to do it?

I know that as Picard says.

“We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity”

And so these may be exceptional individuals who want to stake a claim and make something of a legacy, but fuck me sideways, give me a choice between me and my family being slaughtered by Cardassians and having to live in dire conditions on desolate moon caves in order to fight back using stolen and scraped by equipment, I’d be on the first transport to Earth to go live in 24th Century Nova Scotia in a heartbeat.

But I think in a more general sense, everyone made mistakes, the Federation abandoned its citizens are too easily and the Maquis made key strategic mistakes that seems to have lost it popular and sympathetic support within the Federation and had they played that card better, they may have faired better in the end, but ultimately given what the Cardassians ended up doing with the Dominion And their general asshole ways to everyone, especially the Bajorans, you would be forgiven to being sympathetic to the Maquis cause.

 

[Roundabout]

I'm not sure how many times it needs to be reiterated that the colonists could have relocated.

The burden should ultimately be on the Federation, not the colonists, imo.

As I wrote, the Feds sold out their own colonists to an untrustworthy fascistic foe.

But since the Federation choose to do that, then the Feds are obligated to see their policy through to its logical conclusion, which is to remove all the colonists from those planets; and, as unpleasant as it is, to remove them forcibly if necessary. And, of course, to require the Cardassians to do the same with their people that wound up on the Federation side of the new border.

The Cardassians probably viewed the Federation colonists as fifth columnists. As Kira said, there was no way that the Cardassians would let those colonists live on their land peacefully, no matter what the treaty might have said. As we saw in the various Maquis episodes, the Cardassians waged a terror campaign to force the human colonists out.

The Federation should be blamed for creating this circumstance.



In TNG "Journey's End", Picard actually was going to forcibly remove those native Americans, by secretly beaming them off the planet; but then Wesley sabotaged that. So it is not without precedent. Btw, I can only assume that those native Americans were probably wiped out during the Dominion war.

In "Progress", although the story didn't have anything to do with the Cardassians, the story did show another incident where colonist(s) were forcibly removed from their home(s) for a so-called "greater good". Whether or not, it was a good thing to order the people out of their homes, at least, the Bajoran government had the guts to carry out their policy to the bitter end.

 

[Roundabout]

I thought they were telling the story of the Sinai. Part of Egypt that was occupied by Israel, settlers built villages there, and then in a peace deal Israel relocated the settlers back into Israel and gave the land back to Egypt. The peace between Egypt and Israel lasts today, which cannot be said of relations between Israel and its other neighbors.

Being resettled is not pleasant, but sometimes it's necessary. My parents were living in Oakland, in their first apartment. The land was forcibly acquired, not to make peace, but just to make a freeway. As they were renting, my parents didn't even get relocation expenses.

Part of the Maquis story made me think of the Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza strip. I realize that the withdrawal happened in the mid 2000s, years after DS9 aired. But I didn't see the episodes until after the real world events happened.

Anyway, I remember watching the news of the Israeali withdrawal. I thought it was a really compelling story. The Isreali government ordered all its settlers out of the Gaza strip. For those who didn't leave voluntarily, the government sent in police and soldiers to forcibly remove them. Some of the settlers were dragged out of their homes, literally kicking and screaming.

From the news accounts, it was a gut wrenching situation for the police and soldiers to use force to drag those settlers out. It was also gut wrenching to see it happen.

From what I understood of the situation, the Palestinians would not have tolerated the presence of settlers in the strip. Had the Israeli government simply washed their hands of the settlers and left it up to the settlers, it would probably have resulted in a bloodbath with the Palestinians.

I assume the government would then have to go back into the strip with troops to rescue the settlers. It would have been a bloody mess. Whether one agrees with the policy, at least the government carried out its policy to its logical end.

However, regarding the Maquis, the Federation victimized their own people twice, first by selling them out, then abandoning them when the Cardassian terror campaign against them began.

 

[DonIago]

The burden should ultimately be on the Federation, not the colonists, imo.

As I wrote, the Feds sold out their own colonists to an untrustworthy fascistic foe.

But since the Federation choose to do that, then the Feds are obligated to see their policy through to its logical conclusion, which is to remove all the colonists from those planets; and, as unpleasant as it is, to remove them forcibly if necessary. And, of course, to require the Cardassians to do the same with their people that wound up on the Federation side of the new border.

The Cardassians probably viewed the Federation colonists as fifth columnists. As Kira said, there was no way that the Cardassians would let those colonists live on their land peacefully, no matter what the treaty might have said. As we saw in the various Maquis episodes, the Cardassians waged a terror campaign to force the human colonists out.

The Federation should be blamed for creating this circumstance.



In TNG "Journey's End", Picard actually was going to forcibly remove those native Americans, by secretly beaming them off the planet; but then Wesley sabotaged that. So it is not without precedent. Btw, I can only assume that those native Americans were probably wiped out during the Dominion war.

In "Progress", although the story didn't have anything to do with the Cardassians, the story did show another incident where colonist(s) were forcibly removed from their home(s) for a so-called "greater good". Whether or not, it was a good thing to order the people out of their homes, at least, the Bajoran government had the guts to carry out their policy to the bitter end.

I'm sorry, can you please clarify how forcible removal of people is preferable to "you're welcome to stay with the understanding that you will no longer be considered citizens of our government but will instead be considered citizens of government X"?

Either the Federation is wrong for taking people from their homes, or the Federation is wrong for not taking people from their homes?