Do you see the Maquis differently today?

[Nyotarules]

Coloniser 1 - Lets move from Earth to borderline Cardassia Prime
War starts, peace treaty made, Cardassian troubles begin
Coloniser 2 -Lets move back to Earth or Vulcan or Andor, or Risa or Tellar or any number of planets

Coloniser 1 - Lets move from Earth to borderline Cardassia
War starts, peace treaty made, Cardassian troubles begin
Coloniser 2 - Let's defend our homes, after all we have a god given right to live here, we only moved in last week!

Mmmmmm

 

[Tosk]

How easy it seems for some to say to others, "Just move!"

 

[Guy Gardener]

It's free.

Although I think they just give you Lego bricks and you have to build a kit set city out of it.

Apportionment of land would have to be done by lottery and that's just stupid because you end up with good land or bad Land randomly.

Only the ass holes living on the ponderosa would want to stay, meanwhile all the poor buggers living in boggs or swamps are desperately happy to leave.

 

[DonIago]

How easy it seems for some to say to others, "Just move!"

Please provide examples of how it was demonstrated to be difficult to move in the world that we were presented with.

 

[Tosk]

Please provide examples of how it was demonstrated to be difficult to move in the world that we were presented with.

I never said anything about the ease or difficulty of moving. My comment was about how easily the phrase is used by some. It's all too easy to tell other people what to do with their lives.

To steal a line from JMS, "No, you move."

 

[Bad Thoughts]

The Maquis were the UFP version of 17th century European settlers to the 'New World', if said indigneous people had a stalemate peace treaty with the colonisers but still chose to try to drive them back to Europe no one would call that 'forced relocation'. The majority of the Maquis were not First Nations people, so your moral equivalency does not exist.

Wait, what? Whom did the settlers at the DMZ displace?

We don't know the histories of every settlement, but in at least two cases, the settlements were efforts by continuing communities to repair themselves after they had been almost destroyed by forced resettlement. That is literally the background for Journey's End and Chakotay's backstory. It doesn't matter that they have not planet roots but for a few decades. The communities would have been threatened by forced relocation.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Please provide examples of how it was demonstrated to be difficult to move in the world that we were presented with.

I believe that the episode Ensign Ro demonstrates the damage to community and society that follows forced relocation.

 

[XCV330]

I don't understand in a universe where you can make your gravity with magic floorboards, can break the speed of light in a minivan, and make machines that make everything, that you'd need to worry about territorial space at all. Why "on earth" would you even want to live in a planet?

Inside out worlds like Yorktown in STID would most likely be the norm, albeit possibly on an even grander scale. Those planets with earth-like gravity, weather, atmosphere and day-night cycles would still be relatively rare and probably more useful for other purposes. It's one of those things Trek has been timid to deal with.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetary_chauvinism

 

[Guy Gardener]

Chakotay, is a different bunch of first nation than the folkes from Journey's end.

According to the Voyager Bible, Chakotay's people left Earth in the 22nd century. Not sure if that is before, during or after the birth of the Federation, but they wanted nothing more to do with Earthlings, and when they exited determines how xenophobic the Rubber Tree People truly were.

 

[somebuddyX]

Just beam the whole town up, shove it in the cargo bay and reassemble it on a different world.

 

[DonIago]

I never said anything about the ease or difficulty of moving. My comment was about how easily the phrase is used by some. It's all too easy to tell other people what to do with their lives.

To steal a line from JMS, "No, you move."

But the settlers were presented with a choice. They could relocate, or they could accept the fact that they would no longer be under Federation protection.

If you're going to take issue with it, present an alternative.

 

[DonIago]

I believe that the episode Ensign Ro demonstrates the damage to community and society that follows forced relocation.

Howso? If they beam up the entire community and beam it back down to an almost-identical planet, where is the damage?

 

[Angry Fanboy]

Just beam the whole town up, shove it in the cargo bay and reassemble it on a different world.

I'm sure I saw this idea in a film once.

 

[Orphalesion]

Okay, so why did the Federation make those planets availible to the Caradassians, so the Settlers wouldn't have to leave what they built?

Because they weren't right next to the Cardassian border/sphere of influence, I assume?

BTW, I think it is rather presumptuous to assume that people could just move. Historically speaking, force relocation has been the direct cause of immeseration and death. It was often a precursor to genocidal actions and forced assimilation. I would prefer that we not speak of it so lightly.

No, but equating the situation of the Marquis in the 24th century with the situation of refugees or displaced persons on 20th/21st (or earlier) Earth is rather silly, since the situations aren't even remotely similar.
Because on Earth we are dealing with limited space and resources. In the 24th Century the Federation would literally be able to fashion each colony with a new planet that would be as good or maybe even better than the one they originally colonized.
If some negative space wedgie had shown up to make the marquis planets uninhabitable for humanoids it wouldn't have been any different.
On a new, uninhabited planet the colonists would not face any genocide or "forced assimilation", since it would be completely their world, just like they had it before the relocation.

I believe that the episode Ensign Ro demonstrates the damage to community and society that follows forced relocation.

That analogy fails because the Bajorans in that episode didn't have access to the resources the Federation had and had to settle on (sub par) planets that were no claimed by any other power.
Plus they were scattered by Cardassian brutality and likely had to find each other and build the community over time, losing possessions and family members along the way and then had to construct their new home out of trash and refuse.
In the case of the Marquis it would likely be a Galaxy class Starship picking all the colonists up, helping them pack and aiding them in establishing their new colony.

 

[Tosk]

They could relocate, or they could accept the fact that they would no longer be under Federation protection.

And they chose.

If you're going to take issue with it, present an alternative.

Take it with what? The storyline? I don't take issue with it.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Because they weren't right next to the Cardassian border/sphere of influence, I assume?




No, but equating the situation of the Marquis in the 24th century with the situation of refugees or displaced persons on 20th/21st (or earlier) Earth is rather silly, since the situations aren't even remotely similar.
Because on Earth we are dealing with limited space and resources. In the 24th Century the Federation would literally be able to fashion each colony with a new planet that would be as good or maybe even better than the one they originally colonized.
If some negative space wedgie had shown up to make the marquis planets uninhabitable for humanoids it wouldn't have been any different.
On a new, uninhabited planet the colonists would not face any genocide or "forced assimilation", since it would be completely their world, just like they had it before the relocation.


That analogy fails because the Bajorans in that episode didn't have access to the resources the Federation had and had to settle on (sub par) planets that were no claimed by any other power.
Plus they were scattered by Cardassian brutality and likely had to find each other and build the community over time, losing possessions and family members along the way and then had to construct their new home out of trash and refuse.
In the case of the Marquis it would likely be a Galaxy class Starship picking all the colonists up, helping them pack and aiding them in establishing their new colony.

OF course, it is not an analogy, but an example related to a specific question. It doesn't need to satisfy the same test. However,if you would like an example of the collapse of community under a supposedly benovelent and voluntary resetttlement, please watch ST:Picard.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

The Maquis were the UFP version of 17th century European settlers to the 'New World', if said indigneous people had a stalemate peace treaty with the colonisers but still chose to try to drive them back to Europe no one would call that 'forced relocation'. The majority of the Maquis were not First Nations people, so your moral equivalency does not exist.

If they were moving natives off the planets there could be unforseen medical consequences by moving them to a new ecosystem or financially if not moved to a system with richer resources but but the Maquis were not native. Insurrection done a much better job telling this kind of story with the Baku.

But the Maquis were right when they were trying to warn the FED about Cardassian motives so I can't blame them for arming up

 

[DonIago]

INS may or may not have done a better job, but still did a pretty bad one given the Baku weren't native to that planet either, and by all rights the Federation never should have gotten involved in the dispute with the Son'a given the Baku and Son'a situation was ultimately an internal matter.

But that's a separate thread...

 

[Orphalesion]

OF course, it is not an analogy, but an example related to a specific question. It doesn't need to satisfy the same test. However,if you would like an example of the collapse of community under a supposedly benovelent and voluntary resetttlement, please watch ST:Picard.

Except that doesn't work as an example either, since the resettlement of the Romulans was unpopular among much of the Federation since they were former enemies. And if I remember correctly it was also sabotaged by the Romulan government.

The resettlement of Federation settlements meanwhile would have had the full support of the Federation with all the resources that come with it.
Plus they aren't a culture like the Romulans were so I find all that talk about the "collapse of communities" a little bit overwrought for them. And from the tiny colonies we see they were also nowhere as many as the Romulans.
So no, sorry the Marquis have no leg to stand on. They can plant their tomatoes on a new planet.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Please provide examples of how it was demonstrated to be difficult to move in the world that we were presented with.

You can crash, 5 people survive, and your colony lives on as a cloned civilization, and you only have a choice of 4 people to bang or a copy of yourself.