Poll Do you consider Discovery to truly be in the Prime Timeline at this point?

[fireproof78]

In terms of these changes in DSC, good, bad and flipping ugly, well, they are wrinkles and depend very much on how it’s handled going forward.

And this is my larger point. Do the Klingons fit perfectly well in Prime? No, but the story isn't done.

So, I'm willing to grant more grace to writers until the story is done. I haven't seen anything that makes me go "Nope, not Prime!" as of yet. That certainly could change, but I'm not going to toss it out just because the Klingons had another redesign.

 

[jaime]

And this is my larger point. Do the Klingons fit perfectly well in Prime? No, but the story isn't done.

So, I'm willing to grant more grace to writers until the story is done. I haven't seen anything that makes me go "Nope, not Prime!" as of yet. That certainly could change, but I'm not going to toss it out just because the Klingons had another redesign.

The Augment virus is sitting there after all, in the past Trek has always ironed out the bigger wrinkles. I think the ships are worse than the make-up tbh.

 

[BillJ]

(Granted, I would have still been unhappy with them "on their own merits." I'm in the camp that finds the makeup, ships, and costuming ugly and unconvincing, and it's obviously pointlessly hard to act through. As others have pointed out, G'Kar on Babylon 5 20+ years ago was convincingly and realistically alien, but still allowed Andreas Katsulas to deliver a powerful performance.)

I was just watching the very first episode of Babylon 5 last night and impressed with how well the makeup was done. Discovery could learn a thing or two from those makeup artists.

 

[jaime]

I was just watching the very first episode of Babylon 5 last night and impressed with how well the makeup was done. Discovery could learn a thing or two from those makeup artists.

I think it was Jon Pertwee in Who who pointed out you need mobility around the eyes and mouth in particular, hence him liking the Draconians. You see it in Trek as well (by the nineties, contacts were much easier for regular use in make-up.) with someone like Neelix, who is undeniably alien, yet able to communicate fully facially. It’s actaully harder for the Klingon actors, especially the ones with teeth prosthetics, because then it’s almost all dependent on their voices...they can’t move their eyebrows. The exception of course is Odo, but Rene Auberjonois put unbelievable effort into his mask acting. Odo is extremely expressive, but can barely move his face, particularly early on. There’s a kind of performance that works with masks, and you need to cast accordingly, or don’t ‘bake the expression in’ as the DSC people say in their other show.
The new Klingons aren’t that alien (maybe I say that because the two leads are Brits lol.) they are just...well, if the old Klingons were seventies/eighties metal fans crossed with samurai, then these ones are Scandinavian death metal fans crossed with the Romance of The Three Kingdoms. Trek doesn’t do reallly Alien species for its lead or even guest races...they even explain why in an episode...so there’s no real need. This is just...Z-Brush designs gone massive. Too much digital in the preproduction, and I say that as someone usually pro digital art.
If you want seriously Alien aliens, you need to go cgi or muppets, that’s why Farscape is the most out there show. Even then...it’s expensive, so you need other leads who are practical make-up to carry the show. (Look at the alleged tardigrade navigator dropped from DSC)
Sometimes less is more. These Klingons were all more is more.

 

[BillJ]

These Klingons were all more is more.

I'd say, like a lot of things in Discovery, more ended up being less. I'd point to the metal badges, with all the extra detail that really wasn't necessary.

 

[jaime]

I'd say, like a lot of things in Discovery, more ended up being less. I'd point to the metal badges, with all the extra detail that really wasn't necessary.

Lol. Indeed. Or visible. Even the cast mock those. I like the badge for the most part mind you. The daft side panels? Those not so much.

 

[rahullak]

I consider only the visual aspect as a reboot. The story still fits with canon. It will be interesting to see how the spore drive becomes ultimately unusable and the reason they'll come up with for spore drive not being mentioned at all in the rest of the timeline.

 

[jaime]

I consider only the visual aspect as a reboot. The story still fits with canon. It will be interesting to see how the spore drive becomes ultimately unusable and the reason they'll come up with for spore drive not being mentioned at all in the rest of the timeline.

It got filed. I think that’s basically it for the spore drive. Warehouse 13, with genesis torpedoes, genetronic replicators, transporter hairbrushes, Picards wig, etc. The visual aspect of its reboot needs a little in story tweaking (Enterprise will get painted with the rest of the fleet when they go to using it as sensor baffles or whatever it is, which goes away when we get pearlescent finishes for ships in TMP again..which goes away for seomething in between from TWOK onwards. Klingons will grow har and stop deforming their children’s skulls due to bizarre religious practices, and will regrow ears as whatever side effect of the Augment virus made them go away slowly becomes a recessive gene again. Someone will fire the cheap ass fabulous goth designer in the Klingon shipyards and they will go back to their tried and tested style, the baroque phase being looked back upon as something of an embarrassment, and something they do t talk about to outsiders. Starfleet briefly experiments with futuro MDF in its corridors, because they went off the panelling and it looked nicer with their ally and leather tech, before realising it looked dull even with the Andorians in charge of cray colour lighting. Around this period they realise their entire staff look like quick fit fitters, and promptly dump the blue overalls for all time. The spore network turns out be sentient, turns into Banjo Man and suspiria, and buggers off. Sorted.)

 

[cooleddie74]

Sometimes less is more. These Klingons were all more is more.

And they fail at both.

I like Voq and L'Rell. Kol had a few badass moments. But to date these Klingons have been an almost total fizzle.

 

[ItIsGreen]

Around this period they realise their entire staff look like quick fit fitters

Hey, you can't get better than a Kwik Fit fitter!

 

[JirinPanthosa]

If quality of the show is a component of canon-worthiness, then nobody gets to complain when I say the Star Wars prequels aren't canon.

I haven't seen a real argument that Discovery isn't prime universe that isn't almost entirely in the person's dislike for the show. Inconsistencies? They're two shows produced fifty years apart on opposite sides of digital revolutions and cultural revolutions galore. The factual and stylistic flaws between them are no greater than the ones between TOS era and TNG era shows.

The way I see the different Star Trek shows, like I mentioned in another thread, is that they are analogous to the different perceptions different historians' have on the past. A person writing about Christopher Columbus fifty years ago would have written a completely different story than a person writing about him now. It's like, different historians' perception of a fictional history.

It's fine if you don't like Discovery but Discovery haters need to stop trying to pretend their reasons are objective beyond their own personal preferences. Some people are getting into some hardcore stereotype confirmation there.

 

[Noname Given]

Did anyone else notice that they had real-time holocommunication with Admiral Caldwell (presumably on Earth) while buried inside Kronos? I remember people being unhappy that Kirk phoned Scotty in San Francisco from the Klingon border in Into Darkness. In TOS, communication with the neighbouring Romulan Neutral Zone was days away.

Like Warp Speed and actual; distance traveled; Subspace Communications in Star Trek were also always "what's needed for the plot..."

 

[cooleddie74]

In ENT the subspace relays that Enterprise dropped off to create a communications network certainly allowed Archer and his crew to communicate with Admiral Forrest on Earth in real time. And that was more than 100 years before TOS.

 

[Graham]

Seems to me pretty obvious that Discovery isn't in the Prime universe. I thought that from the start, and regard it as all but confirmed by the new Enterprise.

I actually like that. An awful lot of the WTF aspects of the show go away if one assumes it isn't Prime. In fact I'm baffled as to why the producers ever wanted to call it Prime in the first place.

 

[fireproof78]

The Augment virus is sitting there after all, in the past Trek has always ironed out the bigger wrinkles. I think the ships are worse than the make-up tbh.

The ships are definitely an outlier, to be certain. However, even in human history, there have been cultures were in one generation there is shift towards a particular artistic style, and once that influence is gone it goes directly back to the "way things were."

The Klingon ships left me with the impression that these are far more ornate, and expensive. If Klingons start struggling for resources, going back to a more minimalist, workhorse style, ship that is less cost.

And there is room in the canon for both types.

 

[WebLurker]

The accuracy of the holoprogram in TATV is debatable...

I don't think that it was 100% true to the original events and I think there's evidence that the program is just based on historical events and not a 100% recreation of them (for example, in one scene, holodeck Trip talks to T'Pol about their relationship, which was inspired by a conversation holo-Trip had with Riker, obviously meaning that that bit dipped away from the historical events). However, there's no reason to believe that the overall events as sketched out by the scenario aren't accurate.

...and could depict pre-temporal cold war changes. The rewriting of the Prime timeline starts in Season 1 of Enterprise.

The episode was produced in a post-Temporal Cold War setting. All the ties to the prior shows were made after the TCW began affecting ENT. Was the timeline altered? Yes, but the altered timeline was the one of the prime universe we all know and love.

The ships are definitely an outlier, to be certain. However, even in human history, there have been cultures were in one generation there is shift towards a particular artistic style, and once that influence is gone it goes directly back to the "way things were."

The Klingon ships left me with the impression that these are far more ornate, and expensive. If Klingons start struggling for resources, going back to a more minimalist, workhorse style, ship that is less cost.

And there is room in the canon for both types.

What I've gathered is that the problem is less that they've introduced a new ship design, but that they gave it the name of a pre-existing ship, which raises questions. That seems to be a large problem with DSC's Klingons from what I've heard; a lot of the things could coexist with the already established stuff, but the show presents the new as if that's the "only" version, which is not how the Force works.

 

[TonyC]

I would've had no problem if Discovery's Klingons were a sub species of Klingon, like say the Mintakan Vulcans or the Romulans are to the Vulcans.
I'm not adverse to change, but seriously, Klingons are cannibals now?
L'RELL is possibly the new Chancellor of the Empire, yet Ateztbur was said to be the first Klingon Chancellor, wasn't she?
I am probably mistaken.
Why did Voq need to be mutilated into a human operative when Augmented AND ridged Klingons both existed since ENT?
That in itself would have tied canon to TOS even more.

 

[The Wormhole]

L'RELL is possibly the new Chancellor of the Empire, yet Ateztbur was said to be the first Klingon Chancellor, wasn't she?
I am probably mistaken.

You are

 

[WebLurker]

I would've had no problem if Discovery's Klingons were a sub species of Klingon, like say the Mintakan Vulcans or the Romulans are to the Vulcans.
I'm not adverse to change, but seriously, Klingons are cannibals now?

Different subculture? (To be totally honest, I find the different makeup and behind-the-scenes explanations to be more problematic than the idea that the Klingon Empire society varied.)

L'RELL is possibly the new Chancellor of the Empire, yet Ateztbur was said to be the first Klingon Chancellor, wasn't she?
I am probably mistaken.

A random TNG episode stated that women couldn't serve on the High Council, which would preclude a female chancellor. However, given that Atezbur did hold the office and K'Ehleyr was offered a spot on the Council for political support, it seems like there could be exceptions. So far as I know, while Atezbur was the first character we saw to hold the office, there's no mention that she was the first, anymore than there's canonical proof of Spock being the first Vulcan to join Starfleet.

Why did Voq need to be mutilated into a human operative when Augmented AND ridged Klingons both existed since ENT?
That in itself would have tied canon to TOS even more.

Well, the same could be said about Arne Darvin in the Tribbles episodes, where "Trials and Tribble-lations" (DS9) established that he was a ridged Klingon who was surgically altered instead of a Augment Klingon. While I will agree that there will be a plot hole if DSC ignores the existence of the Augment Klingons, the idea of ridged Klingons doing undercover work like that when Augment Klingons exist is not unheard of.

 

[The Wormhole]

A random TNG episode stated that women couldn't serve on the High Council, which would preclude a female chancellor. However, given that Atezbur did hold the office and K'Ehleyr was offered a spot on the Council for political support, it seems like there could be exceptions.

The line is Redemption about women not being allowed to serve on the Council already contradicted Sins of the Father which very clearly showed three women serving on the Council.

So far as I know, while Atezbur was the first character we saw to hold the office,

Huh? The very first Klingon Chancellor seen in all Trek was K'mpec in TNG, and indeed Gowron was named Chancellor well before TUC was released. Even in TUC itself, Gorkon is Chancellor at the start and it's after his assassination that Azetbur takes office.

Well, the same could be said about Arne Darvin in the Tribbles episodes, where "Trials and Tribble-lations" (DS9) established that he was a ridged Klingon who was surgically altered instead of a Augment Klingon.

Not exactly. Dax comments "surgeon does nice work" upon learning Darvin is a Klingon, but this was before the DS9 characters learned smooth-headed Klingons were once a thing. Though the novels did indeed go ahead and establish Darvin was ridged anyway.