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Do you believe at some point, everyone in the Milky Way joined the Federation?

I think it's highly unlikely everybody (beyond the warp threshold) would join. There always would be species that, even if they're not hostile, like to be unaffiliated.

Also, I can't really picture a Federation of species ranging from Earth, 2063 level, all the way up to the Organians or even the Q continuum, as even in the far, far future, there will be species only just meeting that threshold by then..Do they all get omnipotence the moment they join?
 
Trek until "Beyond" was usually what Gerard K O'Neill would have called "Planetary Chauvanist"

another idea:

There is no reason to think that most civilizations, after achieving spaceflight, would stay in gravity wells. A technological threshold has to be reached where it is easier to simply create your own worlds, be it O'neill cylinders, Dyson Spheres, Suliban style-swarm arcologies (I loved that, and honestly wish they'd explored it more. THe suliban were another missed opportunity). Not to mention species like Tholdians that might thrive near stars.

If you become an advanced civilization, (talking Star Trek and the in world physics), and see all these slightly evolved hominids from various worlds insisting on fighting each other for.. not sure what, it might just make more sense to build a shell around a white dwarf or two that's going to be around for the next dozen trillion years and check out of that entire argument, or hide your species in the event horizon of a black hole and wait for that madness to end. Or just go into the long nap and wait for the universe to literally cool down.

In that regard the UFP sounds like a short term solution to a much bigger problem. And not even the first such solution, as there is that other pesky First Federation out there that never gets much attention apart from bartenders.
 
I like to say, it's insane to think of galactic supremacy as the goal of the Federation, as it seems directly at odds with their (relatively) peaceful demeanor and selective admissions.

...but a core qualification for Federation membership is one-world governments. That a singular polity has sublimated, in most cases (perhaps) their entire known world, through some means. Galactic Conquest is just the next logical, exponential step from world conquest.

We live on a planet where, presently, many people are against the idea (for whatever reason) of a one-world government. Star Trek presents us with that government and probably people who might think "Yeah, why not?" when asked if the Federation should expand exponentially.
 
Basically, the need to ask might never emerge, either. One day, people would just wake up to such a significant number of cultures having joined the Federation that the rest would have to join, too, or else be declared the enemy and crushed, for being so perversely deviant.

Or simply for being incapable of sustaining a separatist lifestyle, what with being surrounded at all sides. The "crushing" could take all sorts of soft forms and involve no weapons fire or even any harsh words. But it's also possible that the UFP would unite against a common foe after common foe, growing bigger and more unified at each step, until becoming incapable of dealing with opposition or difference except through the force of arms.

With classic warp drive, the galactic empire could not be conventionally governed, as it would take decades to access the farther parts. Quicker means of travel are fairly easily available, though, and were there pre-Burn in the galaxy-spanning Federation we witnessed; perhaps those might be expensive things reserved for the needs of the central government, but still.

Yet a culture that is in the process of expanding through the galaxy would probably go unstoppably galactic even with sublight travel, much like the Greek remained Greek despite scattering across the Med. The resulting galaxy might be a pulsating mass of locally emerging new ideas, always stretching this way or that, but never quite breaking off into empirelets, exactly because the new ideas would travel relatively slowly and would always be washing over each and every location more or less evenly. Until something gave.

We know the Slavers went down, but we don't know if the specifics match Larry Niven's Known Space backstory. We can also assume the proto-humanoids eventually ceased to be, but whether through ascension, fragmentation, replacement by their deliberately created offspring, or perhaps some natural disaster or collapse, we have no idea. The Federation collapsed on dilithium shortage, but might rebound after a mere century of chaos. The Dominion has been stable for ten millennia if their propaganda is to be believed. So it might well be that it's the destiny of driven star empires to go galactic, and then stay galactic, until something truly exceptional happens, perhaps only after millions of years of prosperity and stability.

Timo Saloniemi
 
[urtl=https:[URL='http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/empiredyn.php']www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/empiredyn.php[/URL]]Discussion[/url] of travel distances/speeds and time lags. In particular check out FTL Speedsters, and Reaction Time.

The largest astro-political organizations might see travel times across such similar to the longest of the Age of Sail.

Perhaps an astro-political organization could be moderately larger than the TNG era UFP if:

1. There are FTL signals significantly faster than starships.

2. The local political unit is largely autonomous.

3. The organizational layers of the central government are kept as flat as is workable.

To be useful in holding together the astro-political organization, the one-way time lag for your signal should be no longer than about three months. But.... If your signals are much faster that will tend to constrain the autonomy of starship captains...and thus the possibilities for drama.
 
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"Time lag" would need to be viewed in the context of lifespan, which in our "at some point" scenario might be in excess of the Vulcan centuries and counted in millennia instead. If those in local power stay in local power for 500 years straight, then it doesn't matter much if news travel slowly.

In the Trek context, news travel instantaneously, though. And if the news content is "Do as we say or your grandkids will face the wrath of our punitive fleet", it sort of negates the effect of a possible continuing inability to travel fast.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Even with instantaneous communication and travel, I wonder whether there might be a point at which an organization might simply get too large to from an effective entity (for example because too many levels of government/administration become involved).
 
Perhaps an astro-political organization could be moderately larger than the TNG era UFP if:

1. There are FTL signals significantly faster than starships.
ST:VOY already created that technology with Project PathFinder & HyperSubspace Radio communications that allowed RealTime Video Conferencing from the Alpha Quadrant to the Delta Quadrant.

I already did the math on what Warp Factor your radio signals would need to travel to maintain modern day "Real-Time" Video Conferencing standards, and it's RIDICULOUSLY fast.

2. The local political unit is largely autonomous.
That stands to be pretty obvious, Earth knows what is best for Earth.

Same with Vulcan.

Each Planet within the UFP would function similarly to modern day State level of autonomy while being part of a larger Republic.

3. The organizational layers of the central government are kept as flat as is workable.
I also prefer a "As Flat" heirarchy as possible where it makes logical sense.

To be useful in holding together the astro-political organization, the one-way time lag for your signal should be no longer than about three months. But.... If your signals are much faster that will tend to constrain the autonomy of starship captains...and thus the possibilities for drama.
Not necessarilly, a StarShip captain isn't always in range of the local HyperSubspace relay or their signal is blocked out / jammed.

For a signal to work at those distances, you really need to know where a vessel is so that they can receive the signal and respond.

Given space is vast and 3D, it could take A LOT of tries before you get a correct signal aimed towards the chunk of space where you think their vessel might be able to receive said signal.
 
I suspect that at Quarks is right, that at a certain point complexity becomes too much for beings with merely human intelligence. How could even the largest organizations govern a Milky Way with hundreds of billions of stars?

What could be the largest level of organization that could be made to work?

1. A loose confederation of federal states. At the highest tier there would be too much complexity for democracy, but unlike an empire there could be a mildly pluralistic politics. The confederation would probably deal with only a few things, such as trade and defense/security. I think this would be stable only if the members are fairly similar in terms of size and power, otherwise there would tend to secessionist movements.

2. A loose alliance between astro-political units.

In terms of travel times, the maximum possible-that allows coherence-would resemble those from the Age of Sail, as around the time of Magellan.

What if you could drastically increase the speed of transportation? We saw that with the Bajoran wormhole, and that resulted in an invasion by an empire more powerful than the Federation. The Dominion wasn't interested in joining the Federation, they wanted to take over. And the Dominion wasn't the only organization that could do this. So the question is definitely no, if you could get around time lag it is much more likely that the Federation would be conquered than the galaxy joining the Federation.
 
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I would agree that an alliance of semi-autonomous states who have agreed to a constitutional list of shared sentient rights and have a system in place for conflict mediation and resourcing equity is preferable to a single centralized government.
 
Limits in uniting species:

1. Cultural differences. For example, I have trouble imagining Klingons joining the Federation.

2. Psychological differences rooted in neurology.

3. Physiological differences making interaction difficult. As between humans and Tholians, for example.


For number 2, there is an example in the Borg-a hive mind is alien to human individuals.

Another example for number 3-humans may have an awkward time interacting with a species that breathes chlorine.

Artificial Intelligence (AI)? In NuBSG the AI were violent towards humans. In Gregory Benfords galactic core novels, the AI (of alien origin) viewed biological beings as vermin to be exterminated.

What about a Singularity, with super intelligent AI? Difficult to say, but I would imagine that such AI would dominate the galaxy, and other forms of intelligence would cower. With a Borg like collective trying to avoid the super AI, and mere organic beings trying to avoid both.

On the other hand, the founding species of the Federation turned out to be fairly compatible.
 
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If the Federation has a large enough membership, and has advanced enough where travel is instantaneous then going to every corner of the galaxy becomes possible (the Federation surviving up to those points is exceedingly unlikely). But we do know that that within the Star Trek universe cultures have developed the technology for this to happen (including a culture not that different then humans), we also have had races evolve to the point where time and space seem irrelevant to them (Hi, Q).

But even with the ability to travel and reach with no effort every place beings exist in the galaxy doesn't mean that everyone would want to be part of it. Be it from worlds that never manage to evolve or see no reason to ever develop FTL or desire to go past their own star system. To those who cultures always remain diametrically opposite of the goals or interest of the Federation, to those that even if we evolve into godlike status, have evolved even further than the Federation.
 
I think the Federation betrays its own values by not letting people go their own way.

I'm against the Klingons joining the Federation and hope they remain an independent power after the 32nd century.
 
If the Federation has a large enough membership, and has advanced enough where travel is instantaneous then going to every corner of the galaxy becomes possible (the Federation surviving up to those points is exceedingly unlikely). But we do know that that within the Star Trek universe cultures have developed the technology for this to happen (including a culture not that different then humans), we also have had races evolve to the point where time and space seem irrelevant to them (Hi, Q).

But even with the ability to travel and reach with no effort every place beings exist in the galaxy doesn't mean that everyone would want to be part of it. Be it from worlds that never manage to evolve or see no reason to ever develop FTL or desire to go past their own star system. To those who cultures always remain diametrically opposite of the goals or interest of the Federation, to those that even if we evolve into godlike status, have evolved even further than the Federation.
We don't need travel to be "Instantaneous" for the average citizen, it could be good enough to reach the other side of the galaxy within a few days to be transformational.

Kind of like how we can reach almost any place on earth in a matter of days if you have the travel resources available to you.

Imagine being able to reach any Star System in the Milky Way within a matter of a few days, even if you're traveling from the furthest possible ends.

I'm against the Klingons joining the Federation and hope they remain an independent power after the 32nd century.

The UFP has standards for membership, the Klingons that join the UFP will be different from the Klingons we see in the 23rd and 24th century.
 
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