Disney Scraps Plans For Further Star Wars Storys

[Mudd]

Follow the money.

TLJ has made 1.3 billion dollars in four months. I guarantee you that no one at Disney gives a flying fuck what its Rotten Tomatoes or Metacritic scores are.

Sites like Collider, OTOH, live and die by clicks. I'm surprised that some people don't seem to get this, this late in the day. Just like a newstand tabloid of the mid-20th century, it is in their financial interest to inflate, exaggerated and oversell rumors as a component of their business models.

You will know what Disney is going to do when Disney announces it, not five minutes before. In the meantime, you're all free to keep helping clickbait sites make their fractions of a penny.

 

[Mudd]

While I agree with your post, I'd like to add that the same could be said of anything - high standards/expectations breed disappointment and bitterness no matter the object of our affections.

Why do fans so often claim "high expectations" and then lay out evidence that they mean specific expectations?

 

[Campe]

The Irony of your statement is underlined above, and the rest of your statement in Bold, I beg to differ..46% isn't an overwhelming Majority..

Let's think about that for a second though.

Rotten Tomatoes is available globally right? There are 197,800 people who submitted a rating for TLJ, yes? Domestically alone, TLJ sold approximately 67,594,900 tickets per Box Office Mojo. Because of varying international ticket prices, its harder to come to a number there. Regardless, that 198,000 is 0.2% of the approximate amount of tickets sold domestically. Not 2%. But Point Two percent. Now, I'm not stupid enough to suggest that 67.6 million people domestically saw TLJ. Of course not. People went multiple times. I went twice. At the same time, while I don't deal with statistics on a daily basis, a sample size of .2% doesn't seem like a particularly good one if you ask me. Add a global audience, and that .2% goes down. Way down.

Using myself as an example I didn't vote on RT. Most people who give positive reviews for something don't. If they have a real beef with something, sure. I used an example in another thread of how much shade I threw on a home warranty company and the repair company they sent to fix my air conditioning during a hot Texas summer last year. I posted a lot of negative reviews. I posted one positive review for the company who actually fixed my problem. Relating this back to Star Wars, or any fandom, how much do you hear from casual fans who just liked the movie? Or any movie or TV show? Not much. Because they're not going to care enough to vote for it or talk about it.

I'm not saying TLJ isn't divisive. I'm not saying it doesn't have its detractors. I'm not saying that some of these people who didn't like it don't have good arguments for their reasons not to. I'm saying I think its time to stop using the RT score as an end all, be all measuring stick that people hate this film. SOME fans hate this film. And that's their right to. But unless you can actually find me a decent sample statistical set that the majority of people in the world who saw TLJ hated it? I can't take it seriously.

TLJ will not define what happens with the franchise. Solo, likely, with the information that has come out in recent days about Disney being unwilling to move the release date or market the film properly, will not define what happens with the franchise. This is something that will happen with Episode IX and whatever comes next. And likely, with the Johnson trilogy and Benioff-Weiss saga already announced will continue as planned. The worst that happens if a decline continues is that they will go with a lower budget for those movies. But no one is kicking Kathleen Kennedy or Rian Johnson out the door at the moment. If the rumors about Kennedy leaving later this year are true, its because she wanted to leave. With all of the hate she gets from certain sects of fandom, I wouldn't say I would particularly blame her.

 

[Kibbin]

Which is what, really?

Star Wars has always been fun, a spectacle full of pathos and high adventure. It has never been a cerebral masterclass in meaningful art. If anything Luke's arc here represents a step towards a higher standard, a symbolic action with far reaching meaning and consequences rater than yet another light sabre duel. TLJ subverted that expectation, broke the mould in terms of the structure of a Star Wards film. That's hardly a drop in standards.

While I think this one is simple a difference of opinion I'm going to say that for me TLJ isn't the good as a simple fantasy action adventure movie. The whole casino planet felt like it was padding. Two space battles in thirty minutes sound like they could do with a rewrite to me. The failure to pay off the build ups to things like Ray's background or Snoke, while some would appreciate them as twists on old tropes and forumals, to me felt like they didn't know what to do and just threw in a lightsabre fight to distract. Like the prequels before them these new movies seem to be coasting more in name recognition than actual talent.


Likewise if you want a "Star Wars" movie for the fans; old faces come back to be killed off. If you don't want to use Ackbar then that's fine but why have him show up just to kill him. Likewise Luke. I know this is a new billion pound series of movies and you don't want them lead by some old man voice actor. However for me having Luke go and hide on a planet for a decade or two after trying to kill his nephew is out of character considering he went to save his dad after detecting a spark of good in him. This after he had met him a grand total of twice in his life. Once when he killed his mentor Ben and the other when he chopped his hand off and chucked him down a giant hole. You could have Luke play the mentor role to Ray and do a better job than sulking for half a movie.
Also I've got to say that people are saying, not you particularly but it's kind of related to your point so I thought I'd stick it in here, that he is more noble and "powerful" than having Luke go over the top with a lightsabre. I read someone on here say that it's better than going all cgi Yoda. I am not defending CGI Yoda at all but this didn't strike me as much better. You can now have long drawn out fights across the universe with powers that Vader or Kenobi never even hinted at in the OT. Yeah he isn't doing backflips but he is going up against AT-AT's on steroids in repetition of Starkiller base just being another Death Star but biggerer and betterer. Yeah you can do that with your computer but to quote Dr Malcom "you were so busy thinking if you could you didn't stop to think if you should."

Marvel as a franchise has a very different core fan base, we are talking about a comic book franchise that has relied for decades on fans who expect to shell out on a weekly or monthly basis, who expect to get regular instalments. That set of expectations has transferred almost purpose made into providing an audience receptive to the MCU format.

Star Wars is a very different beast, it has for a long time made most of it's money from casual viewers who expected nothing more than a film every few years if at all. The hardcore fanbase who bought into the old EU simply isn't that large to make up the shortfall and are frankly split on the idea of the universe they know now being supplanted.

I'm going to have to disagree here for the simple reason that the countless people going to see the movies are not the same who have bought the comics all their lives. I'm not saying there isn't overlap of course but you can't tell me that the vast majority of those going to see the MCU are the exact same poeple who have bought comics likewise. Odds are some will have knowledge or memories of the old Hulk t.v series or the cartoons but that is a small number i.m.o

While I agree with your post, I'd like to add that the same could be said of anything - high standards/expectations breed disappointment and bitterness no matter the object of our affections. We are currently riding a crest of peak fan toxicity and there is a direct correlation as we also have peak Star Wars.

I would say that this is not always the case. Sometimes high expectations lead to writers, directors, etc etc trying to meet them and or even exceed them. Sometimes productions work because of that enormous burden placed upon them. Sometimes potentially great projects are crushed beneath those expectations. The problem is, to me, is that if you can't bear that burden don't take the name. Don't think you can live up to this "great" franchise then do something new. It's going to be harder for you to make a name for yourself and get people in to give you a chance but you also won't be directly compared, often to the idealised version people have in their heads.

 

[Campe]

I'm going to have to disagree here for the simple reason that the countless people going to see the movies are not the same who have bought the comics all their lives. I'm not saying there isn't overlap of course but you can't tell me that the vast majority of those going to see the MCU are the exact same poeple who have bought comics likewise. Odds are some will have knowledge or memories of the old Hulk t.v series or the cartoons but that is a small number i.m.o

I think the point being made is that there's a richer tapestry coming from Marvel than Star Wars. Which is true. There are hundreds upon hundreds (if not thousands upon thousands) of stories and characters to pull from with Marvel. Star Wars has 40 years but how many characters? How many stories? How many stories that aren't the typical superweapon and three against all odds or a Sith Lord coming back and doing something similar than what was done before? I gave up on the EU for two reasons: 1.) The stories weren't that rich with doing something different. 2.) They frikkin killed Chewbacca (and then basically killed the reason Chewie sacrificed himself two years later)!

 

[fireproof78]

he failure to pay off the build ups to things like Ray's background or Snoke,

Not to cherry pick, but this, right here, is what is meant by fan expectations. Neither Snoke nor Rey's parentage were "built up" in a way that demanded explanation. In point of fact, Maz tells Rey specifically that "they are not coming back." It could be argued that, thematically, Rey's parents are paid off exactly how they are presented in TFA.

As for Snoke, we know as much about him as we did the Emperor, and then he died.

Again, this is the nature of fan expectations, We take for granted so much information that was garnered from ROTJ and intervening years of books and comics and fan discussion that expectations are nearly unconscious. .

 

[Campe]

Again, this is the nature of fan expectations, We take for granted so much information that was garnered from ROTJ and intervening years of books and comics and fan discussion that expectations are nearly unconscious. .

Rian Johnson said it very well, suggesting that he thought about putting in a backstory for Snoke, but anything would seem out of place if he was talking to Rey and went on an exposition rant for two minutes explaining his master plan and where he comes from. To add to that, what does it add to Rey or Ben's stories at that moment? Absolutely nothing.

 

[Tuskin38]

We never got a real (George Lucas written) backstory for the Emperor until the Prequels.

Hell we had very little info on Vader as well, other then he betrayed the Jedi, we didn't know why or how.

Star Wars movies having very little backstory was the norm until 1999.

 

[Campe]

I think a lot of the “Snoke is Plagueis” stuff plays into the expectation of some fans to get this amazing backstory when the truth of the matter is: For TLJ, Snoke was a means to an end to move Ben Solo’s story along. Did JJ have more to say about Snoke? Maybe. Will we see that story in Episode IX? Maybe but unless they do some story about Snoke being a precursor to something big coming from the Unexplored Regions, I sincerely doubt we’ll get more than a fleeting mention. Does it really matter for where we are at this moment? It really doesn’t.

 

[Jedi Marso]

Or maybe they hold it to a higher standard than others, perhaps some would say too high, and thus expect more from it and are just disappointed like a parent or teacher when it doesn't live up to what you know it is capable of.

This may sound a little odd, but I think for the older fans, SW lived so strongly in our imaginations as kids (and adults) that we developed our own, individual 'fanon' sense of where we thought the narrative could/should/would go. Then, either GL or Disney or someone who is not me tells new stories that deviate wildly from our own imagined narratives, and it's a mental/ emotional letdown. Couple that with writing/ storylines that are truly sub-par, and that's the foundation of all the fan-drama that ensues.

Yet Marvel can get out three or four movies a year and are still riding high ten years after they started. I'm sure someone will start talking about super hero fatigue here but it still seems like a problem when people are talking about Star Wars fatigue after only four movies while Marvel was heading into Avengers at this point and could do no wrong.

Others have said the same thing, but it boils down to two simple things:

1) Marvel is knocking it out of the park with their stories (formulaic though they may be), always seeming to find the appropriate mix of humor, seriousness, action, and what-not. Humor in the MCU is part and parcel of the experience, not shoe-horned in or forced. The new SW movies are trying to imitate this and failing. Watching Finn flail around in a leaking plastic bag during a battle just isn't funny.

2) MCU has a ton more characters and storylines to draw from- and does. SW has never gotten away from being a constant re-hash. What are we up to? 3 Death Stars now, including Starkiller Base? 4 if we want to lump the Droid Control Ship in TPM in there because thematically it was the same. If Disney wants SW to succeed long-term, they must find a way to preserve the essence of what it is while making it fresh at the same time. TLJ had hints of that but it flat out didn't pull it off.

To me this is the only way an Obi Wan movie can work. No Luke except maybe a mention in passing. If the plot is about the Empire maybe finding out about Luke unless Ben leaps into action once more I am officially out.

Agree. An Obi-wan movie needs to be about him getting off Tatooine and doing something totally unrelated to Luke. A little vacation from babysitting, as it were.

 

[Tuskin38]

Agree. An Obi-wan movie needs to be about him getting off Tatooine and doing something totally unrelated to Luke. A little vacation from babysitting, as it were.

He would never leave the planet, unless the reason was directly related to Luke.

 

[Jedi Marso]

He would never leave the planet, unless the reason was directly related to Luke.

Says who?

In fact, it might be safer for Luke if he did leave, especially early-on when the hunt for renegade Jedi was running hot and, as a Jedi general from the Clone Wars, he was still very recognizable. He might have deliberately headed off into a different part of the galaxy, making his presence felt 'here and there' and leaving a trail of bread crumbs leading far, far away from Tatooine. Then, a few years later (after the trilogy of Obi-wan movies ), the hubbub dies down as the Empire firms up control over the galaxy, Obi-wan is older, less recognizable, and frankly, yesterday's news. Then and only then is it 'safe' for him to return to Tatooine, live in the desert, watch over Luke, and commune with Qui-Gon over the path to immortality.

Maybe Snoke was one of those Jedi-hunters, and a run-in with Obi-wan is why he looks the way he does in the sequel trilogy.

 

[DigificWriter]

Filmmakers have ZERO obligation to provide answers to questions that they themselves never asked... and especially not when they made it a point to repeatedly make it clear that people should not be expecting said questions to be answered.

Nor are they obligated to answer questions that they did ask in a manner that lines up with how fans might answer said questions.

 

[Kibbin]

Neither Snoke nor Rey's parentage were "built up" in a way that demanded explanation. In point of fact, Maz tells Rey specifically that "they are not coming back."

Personal opinion and I recognise that but if her parents aren't important why are they mentioned? Why do we get a shot of her holding that hand while a ship flies away? Why not have her just say my parents died when I was young. Maybe I was reading more into the movie than was there because this is JJ Abrams and he loves his mystery boxes. For evidence of this see any of his old works or less sarcastically see his Ted talk. As I say I can see why people would appreciate the subversion of expectations but it felt at odds with what came before, for me at least. Likewise for Snoke the Emperor did not have a backstory because there was nothing before Star Wars. The problem with TFA is that it is set in a very clear time period where we have seen the fall of the empire and then the sudden rise of ....... Wait says we, where did he come from? Was he waiting in the shadows of Palp for his chance at the big time? Was he pulling Palp's strings? Etc etc. If you want a clean slate like the originals got why not bump it every so slightly down the timeline. Twenty, thirty, a hundred years? Going off Old Republc stuff, I know not cannon now, tech doesn't seem to change in a galaxy far far away so you can set it more or less whenever and still have them flying more or less the same ships, waving the same lightsabres. By putting Snoke so close to Palp there is the question. A hundred more years either way and he's just some dude trying to take over the galaxy, off you go.

Couple that with writing/ storylines that are truly sub-par, and that's the foundation of all the fan-drama that ensues.

I'm going to quote this bit because I think this is kind of the problem. A lot of people complained about the new BSG reboot. Starbuck is a chick. I remember someone complaining that Adama was a mexican at one point. The thing was that when that first season came out a lot of those people shut up. Not all of them but a lot. The same people aren't shutting up here because the writing is as said "subpar".

 

[Kibbin]

He would never leave the planet, unless the reason was directly related to Luke.

But then don't you have the problem, a bit like Rogue One, at least for me it was, of knowing exactly where it was going. Does LUke get captured and taken off to Vader. No of course he doesn't we've seen the other movies. Where as if you make the movie about something else, a parent and child he is helping etc, then we don't know what will happen to them. Outside of the fact that it's a family movie so of course the good guys will win.

Filmmakers have ZERO obligation to provide answers to questions that they themselves never asked... and especially not when they made it a point to repeatedly make it clear that people should not be expecting said questions to be answered.

Nor are they obligated to answer questions that they did ask in a manner that lines up with how fans might answer said questions.

I don't think JJ ever outright asks the question but there is the implication. As I said in my last post, maybe it's me reading too much into it as this is Mystery box lover JJ Abrams but why were they mentioned. Why have shots of her holding someones hand. Why have her questing for her parents only to get the answer they were nobody so stop asking. We could have started the movie with her knowing this or had a better ending to that quest. They died fleeing the first order, they left her there to cover her heritage, etc etc. Ray wanted to know who they were and where they had gone. We are supposed to emphasise and want what the hero wants. Follow them on that quest.
As I've said this might be a realistic ending to such a quest in real life, no not all orphans are royalty of some far off land, but it doesn't work, i.m.o, for a family friendly adventure fantasy movie. Just like Phantom menace struggled without an identifiable lead this struggles with a wishy washy quest line that goes nowhere. In the hands of good writers the twist of expectations and tropes can be great but GL and RJ(whoever wrote TLJ) aren't, i.m.o, good writers.

 

[Spot261]

The Irony of your statement is underlined above, and the rest of your statement in Bold, I beg to differ..46% isn't an overwhelming Majority..

Except the film was a year ago and RT has become synonymous with clicking campaigns, the only real way the site can be relied on is how a film scores immediately post release, before these campaigns gather steam. It peaked at 91% and remained in the 80+ bracket for several weeks. I'm sure someone of your intellect will have no problem with why one is a far more reliably objective figure than the other.

Likewise cinema score gave the film an "A" rating, whilst every other audience survey gave exceptionally high scores.

While I think this one is simple a difference of opinion I'm going to say that for me TLJ isn't the good as a simple fantasy action adventure movie. The whole casino planet felt like it was padding. Two space battles in thirty minutes sound like they could do with a rewrite to me. The failure to pay off the build ups to things like Ray's background or Snoke, while some would appreciate them as twists on old tropes and forumals, to me felt like they didn't know what to do and just threw in a lightsabre fight to distract.

Agreed, this is all opinion, but can you seriously say none of those criticisms couldn't equally be levelled at any other aspect of the films? Obi Wan and Anakin chasing the assassin? Yoda fighting Dooku? The droids in the scrap works on Bespin sequence? Pretty much any part of ROTJ?

Likewise if you want a "Star Wars" movie for the fans; old faces come back to be killed off. If you don't want to use Ackbar then that's fine but why have him show up just to kill him. Likewise Luke.

How long are these characters supposed to keep defining the universe they inhabit? Making a movie for the fans doesn't mean writing an indulgent fan fic, there still has to be a sense of progression, of narrative. Danger and the passage of time still have to mean something real.

However for me having Luke go and hide on a planet for a decade or two after trying to kill his nephew is out of character considering he went to save his dad after detecting a spark of good in him. This after he had met him a grand total of twice in his life. Once when he killed his mentor Ben and the other when he chopped his hand off and chucked him down a giant hole. You could have Luke play the mentor role to Ray and do a better job than sulking for half a movie.

How is that out of character? Frankly Luke was never all that well developed to begin with (Rey's actually had far more character development in two films than he ever had in the five we've seen him in) but we are taking a couple of decisions made in one set of circumstances as an idealistic youngster and assuming they've set a template for exactly how that character would act ad infinitum. That isn't how real people act, it isn't how good characterisation works. They've shown him to be human like the rest of us, a human who finds redemption in his final act.....

Also I've got to say that people are saying, not you particularly but it's kind of related to your point so I thought I'd stick it in here, that he is more noble and "powerful" than having Luke go over the top with a lightsabre. I read someone on here say that it's better than going all cgi Yoda. I am not defending CGI Yoda at all but this didn't strike me as much better.

....here. How can this not be better?

Seriously? I'm going to assume you were smoking something at this point that your doctor would recommend against.

The scene subverted expectations along with Snoke's death. That's good filmmaking, leading you down a path only to siurprise you and the fact it used the franchise's own tropes to do so is all the more impressive.

You can now have long drawn out fights across the universe with powers that Vader or Kenobi never even hinted at in the OT.

Because they didn't know they could? Because he was the chosen one and could surpass their achievements, much as he did in the OT, defeating Vader after a few days training?

Because despite all the criticism about Rey being a "Mary Sue" (she isn't, not by a mile), the character who really shines here and is really given the chance to show what a force prodigy can do is Luke.

Rey fights some half assed Vader wannabe to a standstill and lifts some rocks, Luke projects his essence across the galaxy and humiliates an entire army including the Sith Lord (sorta) leading them in the greatest display of force power ever shown on screen, but she's the over powered one.

You can't see where the accusations of sexism in that one come from?

 

[Campe]

Personal opinion and I recognise that but if her parents aren't important why are they mentioned?

Because they're important to Rey. And audience expectation subversion.

 

[DigificWriter]

Because they're important to Rey.

Exactly. What happened, though, is that people conflated "important to Rey" with "important to the larger SW mythic tapestry"... despite the fact that the filmmakers, JJ included, made it a point to blatantly state - or otherwise indicate - the contrary.

 

[Kibbin]

I don't consider a Mary Sue. By which I mean original Luke. I'm not a fan of the new trilogy so is Luke a Mary Sue in those, sure. I feel that when most people are levelling the whole Mary Sue thing it is a comparison between OT Luke and FA Ray however. Also wasn't Darth the chosen one. He killed the emperor and brought balance to the force. He just lost his way and needed some help from his son to do so. Big understatement but you get the idea.
It's out of character because as you say Luke isn't that well developed and thus is one of the few things we know about him. You've gone against one of the things we can say about him and thus it feels off and wrong.

You mention subverting expectations and I'm going to do a big no no here and bring the other divisive sci-fi series in to back me up. Discovery failed, for me, because it was so busy subverting expectations that it failed to lay down the plot and character moments so I would be shocked when it happened. Not sure how to spoiler tag so I apologise..............

Lorce is a mirror universe double, so we never really knew Lorca so we're not that fussed when he goes evil. Ash was a Klingon, again we don't know him long enough for this to really matter. Also had these been stand alone incidents but they were all done very close together so it feels too much and crowded to the point where we can't appreciate the story for what it is.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ None of Discovery's "twists" were actually meant to be "shocking" to the audience.