Because you have to set a base level other wise you end up with silver age superman shooting tiny supermen out of his fingers and towing planets by his teeth.
Disney Scraps Plans For Further Star Wars Storys
- Thread starter EnsignRicky
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Kylo doesn't have to be any more powerful to defeat Rey. He just has to, you know, actually get a shot at her in a fair fight.
First fight: He was bleeding to death and in severe pain, Rey gets away due to planet thingy about to blow up.
Second fight: He had just finished off a bunch of Red Power Rangers, was buffeted by the emotion of killing dear old Snoke, and was too conflicted to take a solid whack at Rey.
Methinks their third fight will be a bit more - even.
First fight: He was bleeding to death and in severe pain, Rey gets away due to planet thingy about to blow up.
Second fight: He had just finished off a bunch of Red Power Rangers, was buffeted by the emotion of killing dear old Snoke, and was too conflicted to take a solid whack at Rey.
Methinks their third fight will be a bit more - even.
What are you going on about? That's like a Geek Level 12. Please come down to about a 6.
Excellent! Even better than Obi-Wan himself. I wonder if they can work that into the final movie?
Well, for one I think that Kylo and Vader are very different types of villains. To reference Pokémon; Kylo is Gary while Vader is Giovanni. Also, what @Jedi_Master said.
Yea, I think I get your drift
I already started a multi-million dollar campaign to ask Disney to put it in the movie!
Oh dear, I'm sorry, but this comment of yours is really very offensive. Is that really the only way you feel a woman can defend herself? I'm not talking about some office worker googling low-effort solutions, Rey's a scrapper on a dangerous world who'd have to be a fully capable fighter to survive. Why do you think those aliens gave up on BB-8 so easily? She probably has a reputation for kicking butt! You may be surprised by this, but a woman is fully capable of learning martial combat as well as a man!
Reading many of your comments, I really don't think you understand at all what a Mary Sue even is. Wolverine can't be a Mary Sue because he's an established character, new writers yes take over his writing and maybe make him outrageously powered and ridiculously strong, but he's still not a Mary Sue. Your character has to be a virtually perfect version of yourself inserted into your story, I don't know how many of us have explained this, oh please do try to understand? You can "check" all the boxes you want, but if like the key ones are unchecked she can't be a Mary Sue, right? Rey is not a representation of JJ Abrams or Rian Johnson, she's simply the heroine of this story.
Another example of male privilege, is like how you see here Rey has to jump through so many hoops to justify her story and her role as savior, but Luke doesn't have to do that, and there's really only one reason why (hint: you'll find it between his legs). You're making so much effort to put such a burden on her character and you don't do the same for Luke, this is what people mean talking about bias. If Rey was a male character, I guarantee you we wouldn't be having this conversation, just like it's never coming up with Luke, right?
But I only turned it up to 11.
In old superman comics the writers kept adding more and more powers to his repertoire. He started fairly strong and able to jump very high and then they added stuff like flight, to bring it in line with the cartoons, and ice breath and so on. These worked fairly well so they kept going. He had stuff like super ventriloquism. Could lift entire planets and yes shoot small supermen out of his hands. This era is where the notion that Superman as a Mary Sue comes from. I.M.O
That's my fault, my previous reference to 70s Guardians comics increased the thread's base Geek level by one.
No, she doesn't, that's the point. She only does if you are using the term incorrectly.
All I can say is whoever those people are they are getting it wrong. I don't for a second believe those writers in any way resemble the character as written, nor is he an idealised version of anyone, he's defined by his flaws.
He fought him twice with no training in between. He lost the first time, won the second very convincingly.
I think you are working to a very narrow concept of narrative structure and character development here.
By your logic Sherlock Holmes is a very poorly written character. But then again, he's male.
We meet Rey at a point where she's already developed a great many skills. That isn't poor writing, it's simply the character as presented at that point in her life.
If you can't see how blatantly now you are applying the logic of your arguments selectively then all I can tell you is other people certainly are seeing it. You are illustrating the very point being made, where even if it subconsciously there's a massive cognitive bias towards accepting competence far more readily in a male lead than a female.
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I never said she had no tragedy in her life. I was challenging the idea that Luke never had anything so awful happen to him...
I feel your point here is really explaining everything that's going on!
@BillJ Oh dear I'm so very sorry if I caused confusion, I totally know Luke has had horrible things happen, I meant how in my mind I don't believe anything compares to your parents rejecting you, that's like so far and above anything else that could happen emotionally to a person, I do hope I'm making sense?
lol... Well said.
Got it.
I don't see the issue in what you're suggesting for Rey. Its not like she came in right in TFA, had no idea what she was doing and suddenly was able to do Force Skype and choke a dude and lift rocks and shoot lightning out of her finger tips. Nothing we saw her do seemed to be super advanced: Force move wise, she was able to hold her own against an injured Kylo Ren in a lightsaber duel, fight back against him as he tried to pull things out of her head, do a mind trick after much work, kill a few Praetorian Guards with Ren's help and lift some rocks. That's It. She had her missteps. She's not perfect. But we can accept after a few hours of training, being able to guide torpedoes into a small hole with the Force, we can accept a young child with amazing reflexes who has no training be able to use the Force to fly podracers and blow up a Trade Federation ship. The Force having its influence on characters and making them able to do something amazing is nothing new in the Star Wars universe.
Then seen as how we're making a sequel are they not in the wrong order. Should we not be building rather than going down. I wouldn't mind if he was coming across as a more personal villain, like Gary, but I'm just not getting that from the movie.
Okay first off. Women can kick ass. I am sure many women can kick my ass. I am sure you can kick my ass. This is not up for debate. What we need to establish in this movie is can Rey. Had she said something like I'll give you more of what you got last time. Then we'd know she has beat them up and thus can scare them off. (Better dialogue may be needed). The thing is she doesn't. Jawas are seen as fairly weak timid little things from what we've seen in Star Wars thus far so it doesn't say much for her as a character. Say what you will about GL but he made sure to set up what Luke can do and why before it became relevant. He set up precedent.Oh dear, I'm sorry, but this comment of yours is really very offensive. Is that really the only way you feel a woman can defend herself? I'm not talking about some office worker googling low-effort solutions, Rey's a scrapper on a dangerous world who'd have to be a fully capable fighter to survive. Why do you think those aliens gave up on BB-8 so easily? She probably has a reputation for kicking butt! You may be surprised by this, but a woman is fully capable of learning martial combat as well as a man!
Reading many of your comments, I really don't think you understand at all what a Mary Sue even is. Wolverine can't be a Mary Sue because he's an established character, new writers yes take over his writing and maybe make him outrageously powered and ridiculously strong, but he's still not a Mary Sue. Your character has to be a virtually perfect version of yourself inserted into your story, I don't know how many of us have explained this, oh please do try to understand? You can "check" all the boxes you want, but if like the key ones are unchecked she can't be a Mary Sue, right? Rey is not a representation of JJ Abrams or Rian Johnson, she's simply the heroine of this story.
Another example of male privilege, is like how you see here Rey has to jump through so many hoops to justify her story and her role as savior, but Luke doesn't have to do that, and there's really only one reason why (hint: you'll find it between his legs). You're making so much effort to put such a burden on her character and you don't do the same for Luke, this is what people mean talking about bias. If Rey was a male character, I guarantee you we wouldn't be having this conversation, just like it's never coming up with Luke, right?
Yes she has to justify her story other wise it's poor writing and an ass pull. Remeber we are not talking about a real person we are talking about a story. You have to establish your character other wise it feels false. We start to loose a sense of urgency when they are pulling out force powers at the drop of a hat for no reason. If she can do this whose to say what else she can or can not do.
Would you prefer if I just called her a poorly written, over powered character? The thing is that for most people this explains a Mary Sue and crosses over with almost all the same points. Hence why the term is used a short hand to get across what problems you have with the writing.
I don't think there is a way to really know emotionally which is worse unless you've had both happen to you. Thankfully, most of us won't experience either being abandoned or having our parents violently murdered.
Except going off past experience with the series, before training the Force only seem to aid skill. Piloting pod racers and space ships. Not out and out force powers. Again if we get twenty more movies after this then that can change and Luke and Ani could be the exception but as of now she is the odd one out for that.
A sith who:
1) Wasn't trying to kill her
2) Was emotionally compromised by his father's death
3) Shot in the damn leg by Chewie's Bow-caster which would have killed a normal man. He was also bleeding out from it.
4) Wasn't fully trained, Snoke says as much near the end of the film
Also he isn't a sith.
Do we need a line to establish every practical skill someone has, no matter how obvious or credible under the circumstances? Do we need film characters to start mentioning they have passed their driving test and learnt to cook once?
Not everything needs to be foreshadowed quite so blatantly in dialogue, on the contrary doing so is poor writing. She has certain skills which are entirely feasible and probable given her circumstances and setting which are made clear from the get go. We don't need everything spelled out when we are presented with a character whose actions are clearly deomnstrating who and what she is.
How was she not established in the film?
Okay, this time I did some poor phrasing. When I compared Kylo to Gary and Vader to Giovanni I meant that more in terms of power level. Gary is the type of continuing barricade that appears again and again and Vader is the really powerful guy and in order to take down his Mewtoo you'll have to train a whole lot. Honestly, Vader is probably a more personal villain for Luke than Kylo is for Rey since he's his father.
Well, I would. The thing with the Mary Sue term is that it is often (not always, but often) used in sexist ways. Due to its roots in fan fiction it also carries a message other than "that character is poorly written and overpowered" and that is a direct comparison to a character from fanfiction wich is generally seen as a bit of an insult. Then there's the continual argument about wether Mary Sue means "self insert" or "overpowerd" or both which muddies the waters even further.
"Poor writing" = the dialogue did not explain things to the Nth detail and thus 50 YouTubers with no ability to fill in the blanks jumped all over it and made cool videos I rewatched a few times.
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