Disney Scraps Plans For Further Star Wars Storys

[Kibbin]

I'm really curious how prevalent the term would still be if the source character had been male. It seems people have focused in on the gender of the original Mary Sue character at the expense of the point, why she was important and earned her own trope.

I think I'm going to disagree. We've tried to come up with labels for male characters that do the same "Martu Stu" "Gary Stu" but they never seem to stick and that's simply because we already have a word for it. Now i.m.o it just so happens that early fanfic was filled with pretty, young, female ensigns who wanted to jump into bed with Kirk/Spock/etc. Had the early fan fic community been dominated by men or had the stories been filled with dashing buck rogers esque ensigns coming in and upstaging the crew we might have got the name "Marty Stu" the thing is we didn't because they weren't. It also happened that due to it being at the birth of nerd fandom "~ish" that the term stuck in a way that wouldn't happen now because it's harder to focus the fandom despite them using leaflets and church halls and us using e-mails and san diego comic con.

.Still wouldn’t call him a Mary Sue though. It’s just iffy writing.

As I said for all of those it depends on the writing but when Wolverine was growing back from single cells and headlining a silly amount of comics a month I would say he qualifies.

He flies his toy space ship through the air, with his hand, like a 5-year old. She has probably been self training for years, and could have even been taught by an expert in her past. We know Luke had an expert available, but he was not instructed. Do we even know if Luke got in a fist fight as a farmer? He didn't make a very good showing of himself when the sandman sneaked up on him, nor in the Mos Eisley Cantina.

To me, Luke makes the more surprising change and goes on a faster learning curve initially.

I think this is the problem. Luke claims to be a good pilot and then is backed up by an independent witness (okay his buddy from back home, not exactly impartial I know) Rey is just kind of a blank slate. Also other than the flying Luke doesn't really accomplish much in the first two movies. As you say he can't handle the San person nor the guy at the bar. Barely escapes the Yeti on Hoth. He is constantly carried by the team until he levels up. The only thing Rey doesn't do by herself in the first movie is blow up the base and that's probably because Poe got there first.

 

[Spot261]

I think I'm going to disagree. We've tried to come up with labels for male characters that do the same "Martu Stu" "Gary Stu" but they never seem to stick and that's simply because we already have a word for it.

In which case why is it still so overwhelmingly associated with females? Yes we've had the likes of Wesley Crusher but he was a pretty obscure character outside of the very fandom which coined the term.

We'll never know, of course, but can you honestly say you see no gender bias in it's usage? Can you honestly say there were no males fitting the criteria long before the publication of that short story who for some reason didn't get commented on or become an insulting and politically loaded trope?

James Bond, The Man With No Name, Luke Skywalker, hell Captain Kirk himself could all qualify but for some reason they were just seen as heroes. It was just accepted that was the format and went unremarked on until we got an obscure fanfic with a female who fit the bill and it stuck, only to then go on and become forever associated in the minds of the masses with "competent female" and used as an insult.

 

[Jinn]

You know you absolutely made my day?

IT'S A MOTE!

 

[Spot261]

I think this is the problem. Luke claims to be a good pilot and then is backed up by an independent witness (okay his buddy from back home, not exactly impartial I know) Rey is just kind of a blank slate.

Claims to be a good ground based speeder pilot and goes on to instantly become an elite space fighter pilot despite never having seen such a craft or been in space.

As opposed to Rey who isn't about making claims, she just has to get on with the job of survival because she doesn't live a comfortable teenagers life on a farm and talk is cheap.

Also other than the flying Luke doesn't really accomplish much in the first two movies

And blowing up the Death Star, being pivotal in slowing the advance on the Rebel base and projecting enough force presence and hence a threat to completely alter the plans of the Empire?

 

[Kibbin]

In which case why is it still so overwhelmingly associated with females? Yes we've had the likes of Wesley Crusher but he was a pretty obscure character outside of the very fandom which coined the term.

We'll never know, of course, but can you honestly say you see no gender bias in it's usage? Can you honestly say there were no males fitting the criteria long before the publication of that short story who for some reason didn't get commented on or become an insulting and politically loaded trope?

James Bond, The Man With No Name, hell Captain Kirk himself could all qualify but for some reason they were just seen as heroes. It was just accepted that was the format and went unremarked on until we got an obscure fanfic with a female who fit the bill and it stuck, only to then go on and become forever associated in the minds of the masses with "competent female" and used as an insult.

I think I'm going to focus on the term insert here. Ignore when a new writer takes over a character like batman for a second. As I said my first example presented to me was Wes Crusher. Now had Riker or Picard or Data been super awesome that would be taken as read. Many shows have one super duper lead and a cast of supporting characters. The thing was that Wes was a secondary character who out shone the main cast fairly often with his super duper know how. They are inserted into an existing franchise or world. Rey is inserted into an existing Star Wars universe. Mary Sue was inserted into an existing television show.
Now I'm sure some people do use the term solely for women. I'm not going to disagree with that. All I can say is that I'm struggling to come up with another main stream property (film, telly, etc) where the term was used. Now I'm going to hold my hands up and say that is because it is slightly nerdy knowing fanfiction terminology and thus will mostly be used on nerdy stuff and most nerdy stuff is male dominated in terms of characters so that could explain why I haven't seen many mary sues.
Now maybe I'm just blanking on them atm but if you'd like to give me a rough list of who is considered a mary sue 'cos those dudes I mentioned before are kind of my go to example when I'm explaining the term to someone.

 

[Steven P Bastien]

Rey is just kind of a blank slate.

This could be debated because we do learn many things about her and her situation right away. But, certainly there is mystery about her origins and exactly who she is and who she may become. Many heroes come in as a blank slate, and then we gradually learn something about them. But, often an air of mystery is always maintained. Clint Eastwood as the "Man with no Name" is one. In "Once Upon a Time in the West", Bronson is a blank slate but then you learn about him in flashbacks and his own words gradually. Most importantly the hero needs to fill in most of the slate with their actions and sometimes the less you know about their past, the more fascinating the hero becomes.

If you see her as a problem, that's fine because characters and stories never work for everyone. For me, the character of Rey is fascinating and really my favorite thing about the latest movies. Maybe I'm blinded by her beauty, but I think it's more than that. Aside from the overly choreographed fight scenes, I find her very convincing as a hero.

 

[Kibbin]

Claims to be a good ground based speeder pilot and goes on to instantly become an elite space fighter pilot despite never having seen such a craft or been in space.

As opposed to Rey who isn't about making claims, she just has to get on with the job of survival because she doesn't live a comfortable teenagers life on a farm and talk is cheap.



And blowing up the Death Star, being pivotal in slowing the advance on the Rebel base and projecting enough force presence and hence a threat to completely alter the plans of the Empire?

The toy he is playing with a t-16 skyhopper. It's a leap I know but the implication is that this is the ship he is referring too. After he says "I used to bullseyes womprats in my t-16 back home". Now I know this isn't explained and thus you have to fall to the expanded material to get the connection, a bug bear of mine in nerd films, but the link is there. Now yes this isn't a space vehicle but it also isn't a ground based speeder. The way Luke is waving it around implies it is an air craft. Anyway you say space ace and yet he doesn't shoot down a disproportionate number of ties compared to everyone else and aces the trench run because a) han saves his ass before he gets blown to bits (after Biggs and Wedge both provide a meat shield for him before that) and b) it's like beggars canyon back home. He states that his flying involves flying down a canyon and shooting really small targets. Exactly what he is trying to do here. Luke has a very paticular set of skills that might have seen him die at Skariff or somewhere but just so happened to be what was needed here. Add in a touch of the force and he's golden.
I think the thing with Rey is that she does everything herself. That's what makes the whole thing so over powered. Finn goes to rescue her and she's already broke free and legging it. Com up against Kylo and after Finn accomplishes bugger and all she takes him down. About the only thing anyone does that helps her in the first movie is one bow caster bolt.

 

[fireproof78]

I think this is the problem. Luke claims to be a good pilot and then is backed up by an independent witness (okay his buddy from back home, not exactly impartial I know) Rey is just kind of a blank slate. Also other than the flying Luke doesn't really accomplish much in the first two movies. As you say he can't handle the San person nor the guy at the bar. Barely escapes the Yeti on Hoth. He is constantly carried by the team until he levels up. The only thing Rey doesn't do by herself in the first movie is blow up the base and that's probably because Poe got there first.

Rey is hardly a "blank slate" since she has goals and ambitions outside of just "winning." She struggles with self-doubt along the way. She also states that she is a pilot then demonstrates that skill. In other words, "showing, not telling" which is a screenwriter's 101.

As for Luke, he merely is important enough for an evil overlord to devote resources to find him.

 

[Spot261]

Now had Riker or Picard or Data been super awesome that would be taken as read.

They were.....

They are inserted into an existing franchise or world.

They were.....

Rey is inserted into an existing Star Wars universe. Mary Sue was inserted into an existing television show.

The "insert" thing doesn't mean into an existing franchise, it means the author is inserting an idealised version of themselves into a work of fiction. It could be an entirely novel setting, the concept works just as well.

Now I'm sure some people do use the term solely for women. I'm not going to disagree with that. All I can say is that I'm struggling to come up with another main stream property (film, telly, etc) where the term was used. Now I'm going to hold my hands up and say that is because it is slightly nerdy knowing fanfiction terminology and thus will mostly be used on nerdy stuff and most nerdy stuff is male dominated in terms of characters so that could explain why I haven't seen many mary sues.

Typically it's original usage was as a literary term and has latterly been used in the sense you describe.

Now maybe I'm just blanking on them atm but if you'd like to give me a rough list of who is considered a mary sue 'cos those dudes I mentioned before are kind of my go to example when I'm explaining the term to someone.

I already gave you a few, but they were deliberately picked as males,

I've heard (rightly or wrongly) Mary Sue herself, Ripley, Sarah Conner, Buffy, Supergirl, Michael Burnham, Rey, Princess Leia, WonderWoman, Carol Danvers, Janeway, Seven, River Song all used as examples at various times.

Can't imagine why parts of nerddom are seen as being threatened by females.

Crucially far less critical thinking goes into the label in the case of those females, people are far quicker to use the term, with far less justification and far more negative connotations. Where it is occasionally used with males it is typically in (as you describe) attempts to seriously discuss the meaning and merit of the term, whereas with females it is essentially a cheap gendered insult.

 

[Kibbin]

This could be debated because we do learn many things about her and her situation right away. But, certainly there is mystery about her origins and exactly who she is and who she may become. Many heroes come in as a blank slate, and then we gradually learn something about them. But, often an air of mystery is always maintained. Clint Eastwood as the "Man with no Name" is one. In "Once Upon a Time in the West", Bronson is a blank slate but then you learn about him in flashbacks and his own words gradually. Most importantly the hero needs to fill in most of the slate with their actions and sometimes the less you know about their past, the more fascinating the hero becomes.

If you see her as a problem, that's fine because characters and stories never work for everyone. For me, the character of Rey is fascinating and really my favorite thing about the latest movies. Maybe I'm blinded by her beauty, but I think it's more than that. Aside from the overly choreographed fight scenes, I find her very convincing as a hero.

That's my fault as yes we do get some character from her in the opening bit of TFA. The home made looking doll or even her putting on the helmet and in my mind pretending to be flying a space ship. I meant that she is a blank slate as to her skills. Case in point. When they are on Hans new ship and she starts fiddling around with the wiring underneath or is shouting at Finn to pass her the sonic screwdriver I appreciate that. We saw her as a scavenger having to identify parts to sell for food. Clearly she needs to pick out good bits and not scrap metal. The idea that she needs to know how they work in basic terms can be extrapolated from that. That's fine. The fighting and flying not so much. She scares off some Jawas who are trying to pick up BB-8 and knocks over Finn is the extent we see and or hear of her use with it. Could we not have had a refrence to her being trained by someone or her helping out on low level cargo runs for the fat guy?

 

[Campe]

^ One thing I will say about the T-16, it does appear that in the garage, a ship that matches the toy Luke is playing with can be seen.

Regardless, we don't know the extent of how maneuverable this sort of thing is, how fast it goes. All we do know is that Luke is "the best bush pilot in the outer rim" (per Biggs) and that he "used to bullseye womp rats" that "aren't much bigger than two meters" (per Luke). So, if we can buy the idea of Luke being able to fly an X-Wing, which has to be more complicated than a T-16, then why can't we believe that Rey was able to learn self defense in the desert and might have helped Unkar Plutt out with flying shipments OR might have stolen the Quad Jumper once or twice at night? She says she's a pilot. That's not unbelievable in her situation.

 

[fireproof78]

Could we not have had a refrence to her being trained by someone or her helping out on low level cargo runs for the fat guy?

I don't think it's necessary. We see her do it.

Also, how is fighting not a survival skill?

 

[Spot261]

The toy he is playing with a t-16 skyhopper. It's a leap I know but the implication is that this is the ship he is referring too. After he says "I used to bullseyes womprats in my t-16 back home". Now I know this isn't explained and thus you have to fall to the expanded material to get the connection, a bug bear of mine in nerd films, but the link is there. Now yes this isn't a space vehicle but it also isn't a ground based speeder. The way Luke is waving it around implies it is an air craft. Anyway you say space ace and yet he doesn't shoot down a disproportionate number of ties compared to everyone else and aces the trench run because a) han saves his ass before he gets blown to bits (after Biggs and Wedge both provide a meat shield for him before that) and b) it's like beggars canyon back home. He states that his flying involves flying down a canyon and shooting really small targets. Exactly what he is trying to do here. Luke has a very paticular set of skills that might have seen him die at Skariff or somewhere but just so happened to be what was needed here. Add in a touch of the force and he's golden.
I think the thing with Rey is that she does everything herself. That's what makes the whole thing so over powered. Finn goes to rescue her and she's already broke free and legging it. Com up against Kylo and after Finn accomplishes bugger and all she takes him down. About the only thing anyone does that helps her in the first movie is one bow caster bolt.

And you don't see this as going out of your way to justify a bias in favour of a male character at the expense of a female one?

You've just disregarded the set up for Rey being a natural scavenger with learnt combat, survival and practical skills along with a keenly honed sense of how to cope in dangerous situations, but delved into the specifics of a particular model of speeder to explain why it's perfectly feasible for someone to fly a space fighter against elite military pilots and destroy a key military target, despite never having seen one or been in space before.

Does that not seem to suggest a slight cognitive bias?

 

[Marynator]

Oh dear, only a man wouldn't be able to imagine why a lone female scavenger on a lawless world would develop combat skills.

 

[Spot261]

Oh dear, only a man wouldn't be able to imagine why a lone female scavenger on a lawless world would develop combat skills.

She'd surely have men look after her wouldn't she?

 

[Kibbin]

They were.....

No more than those around them. The only one who was was Data who it was stated was an android. That was his thing. Yet Wes was pulling reverse tractor beams out his butt that the chief engineer of the federation flagship hadn't thought of. Geordie was a good engineer because that was his job. He was getting out shone by Wes who was a kid who hadn't been to academy. It's like someone picking up Han's ship and flying it better than he ever did despite never having been in it before. Oh wait..........

The "insert" thing doesn't mean into an existing franchise, it means the author is inserting an idealised version of themselves into a work of fiction. It could be an entirely novel setting, the concept works just as well.

But is it not more obvious in an established setting where the character breaks the bell curve. Like in Star Wars where she is mind wiping storm troopers before her first lesson.

I already gave you a few, but they were deliberately picked as males,

I've heard (rightly or wrongly) Mary Sue herself, Ripley, Sarah Conner, Buffy, Supergirl, Michael Burnham, Rey, Princess Leia, WonderWoman, Carol Danvers, Janeway, Seven, River Phoenix all used as examples at various times.

I've heard of and probably agree with Seven of Nine and River Song out of that list. The rest I would probably say are being used by people on the internet because they are female I grant you. But even if it is those self same people who are calling Rey a Mary Sue. Then it seems a broken clock does indeed tell the time right at least twice a day.

Crucially far less critical thinking goes into the label in the case of those females, people are far quicker to use the term, with far less justification and far more negative connotations. Where it is occasionally used with males it is typically in (as you describe) attempts to seriously discuss the meaning and merit of the term, whereas with females it is essentially a cheap gendered insult.

I'm going to disagree here as I've seen it used to write off a bad comic in one sentence. Oh there's a new Wolverine book out. Yeah don't bother he's a total mary sue. There is no discussion or debate because it's, where I have seen it used, a slate on the writer not the character. I've read great Wolverine books but if someone tells me not to bother with this one because he's a M.S, and it's someone I trust, then I won't bother because I know the writer is telling a bad contrived story.
I don't know why I keep coming back to Wolvie. People are going to assume I like him or something fairly soon. I don't. Well not really. Not in a while anyway.

 

[Kibbin]

Oh dear, only a man wouldn't be able to imagine why a lone female scavenger on a lawless world would develop combat skills.

But are they any good? Are they good enough to take down a trained Sith? Remember she doesn't pepper spray him and then kick him in the balls.
The idea that she can fight isn't a question the question is can she take down a trained Jedi who we've seen stop laser blasts mid air and has explicitly trained with a sword.
The t-16 isn't the same as an x-wing but going back to my previous point he doesn't do it alone. Does Rey beat Klyo while Finn chucks rocks at him? Does she distract him while he shoots Kylo in the back. Luke had two meatshields on the trench run and then got saved by Han. Before that we don't see Luke's flying as being any better than any other member of red squad.

 

[Jinn]

But are they any good? Are they good enough to take down a trained Sith? Remember she doesn't pepper spray him and then kick him in the balls.

Apparantly they are good enough to take down an emotionally unstable trained Sith who is not trying to kill her, but rather make her join him (IIRC).

 

[Campe]

Apparantly they are good enough to take down an emotionally unstable trained Sith who is not trying to kill her, but rather make her join him (IIRC).

First, Kylo Ren? Not a Sith.
Second, to be fair, he also just got a blaster bolt in the side and a lightsaber injury to the arm. He was bleeding, probably not at his best. Just pointing out: It wasn't Rey alone who took down Kylo Ren.

 

[Spot261]

No more than those around them. The only one who was was Data who it was stated was an android. That was his thing. Yet Wes was pulling reverse tractor beams out his butt that the chief engineer of the federation flagship hadn't thought of. Geordie was a good engineer because that was his job. He was getting out shone by Wes who was a kid who hadn't been to academy. It's like someone picking up Han's ship and flying it better than he ever did despite never having been in it before. Oh wait..........

Picard wasn't exceptional even by Starfleet standards?

You're a funny guy!

But is it not more obvious in an established setting where the character breaks the bell curve. Like in Star Wars where she is mind wiping storm troopers before her first lesson.

She doesn't break the bell curve, she sits at one extreme end as already established in the very first movie. Even if she did, that still wouldn't make her qualify.

I've heard of and probably agree with Seven of Nine and River Song out of that list. The rest I would probably say are being used by people on the internet because they are female I grant you. But even if it is those self same people who are calling Rey a Mary Sue. Then it seems a broken clock does indeed tell the time right at least twice a day.

Er, yes, River Song....

Problem is Rey isn't a Mary Sue, that's the point, not even remotely. She is not even remotely an idealised version of Rian Johnson.....

I'm going to disagree here as I've seen it used to write off a bad comic in one sentence. Oh there's a new Wolverine book out. Yeah don't bother he's a total mary sue. There is no discussion or debate because it's, where I have seen it used, a slate on the writer not the character. I've read great Wolverine books but if someone tells me not to bother with this one because he's a M.S, and it's someone I trust, then I won't bother because I know the writer is telling a bad contrived story.
I don't know why I keep coming back to Wolvie. People are going to assume I like him or something fairly soon. I don't. Well not really. Not in a while anyway.

Wow, you really want me to run with the whole "I could play Wolverine" gag don't you?

Who on Earth seriously uses him as an example of a Mary Sue?