Disney/LFL to slow down Star Wars releases

[fireproof78]

I just don't really get why these are criticisms. Luke's fatherhood issues are basically what drive his character, and the cave encounter is hugely important. The whole Obi-Wan lie is a bit harsh, but I think they did a relatively good job covering it with Obi-Wan's explanation, especially since Vader wasn't supposed to be Luke's father at first.

No. Obi-Wan's explanation was ok, but hardly good. Then they doubled down on it by ROTS with Obi-Wan leaving Anakin to burn.

They are criticisms from me because of how the first film framed the conflict. Yes, it added more shades of color to the classic "good vs. evil" story but it does so by framing the good guys as liars and inept. It also has to torture Luke in the process of getting him there. That doesn't make for an enjoyable story of watching the protagonist (and arguably the audience surrogate in ANH) being tortured with ice, and snow, and beasts and amputation. At least, I do not find it enjoyable.

 

[HugeLobes]

<shrugs> Obi-Wan could have just admitted he lied to protect Luke, as opposed to covering it up with the "from a certain point of view"-ness.

I guess. I kinda prefer the way they went though. It doesn't make as much sense, but I think it reinforces the fact that Obi-Wan, Yoda, and even Vader consider Anakin essentially dead.

 

[HugeLobes]

That doesn't make for an enjoyable story of watching the protagonist (and arguably the audience surrogate in ANH) being tortured with ice, and snow, and beasts and amputation. At least, I do not find it enjoyable.

I feel like tortured is the wrong word here. Luke goes through some shit, but he's fine for most of the movie, and it's his own choice to train despite Yoda's warnings. This wasn't The Passion of Christ or anything.

Then they doubled down on it by ROTS with Obi-Wan leaving Anakin to burn.

Yeah, that was pretty hilarious.

 

[Campe]

No. Obi-Wan's explanation was ok, but hardly good. Then they doubled down on it by ROTS with Obi-Wan leaving Anakin to burn.

That bothered me too. Not only did it paint Obi-Wan in a vengeful light, it would have been far more heartbreaking if Obi-Wan actually did believe Anakin died as opposed to just leaving him there. Think about how Obi-Wan’s reactions in ANH would have played off if he actually was finding out apprentice, friend, brother was alive at that point. Just some unfortunate missed opportunities.

 

[fireproof78]

I feel like tortured is the wrong word here. Luke goes through some shit, but he's fine for most of the movie, and it's his own choice to train despite Yoda's warnings. This wasn't The Passion of Christ or anything.

Not sure how being frozen, attacked by a wampa, snowspeeder crash, and loss of a hand plus the psychological impact of Vader's revelation couldn't be considered torture

 

[HugeLobes]

Not sure how being frozen, attacked by a wampa, snowspeeder crash, and loss of a hand plus the psychological impact of Vader's revelation couldn't be considered torture

Because torture is generally something actively done to you to get information or punish you. If I got lost in a snowstorm, attacked by a wolf, or injured in a car crash, I wouldn't say I'd been 'tortured' by the snow, wolf, or car. Even having a hand cut off in a fight isn't really something I'd describe as torture.

This is torture:

 

[fireproof78]

Because torture is generally something actively done to you to get information or punish you. If I got lost in a snowstorm, attacked by a wolf, or injured in a car crash, I wouldn't say I'd been 'tortured' by the snow, wolf, or car. Even having a hand cut off in a fight isn't really something I'd describe as torture.

I'm talking in terms of the overall story and character development.

 

[DigificWriter]

I'm talking in terms of the overall story and character development.

"Torture" still isn't the appropriate word.

 

[fireproof78]

"Torture" still isn't the appropriate word.

It is in terms of what Luke is put through by the writers of the story. In comparison to his path to ANH Luke's journey is fraught with great physical or mental suffering or anxiety.

 

[HugeLobes]

I'm talking in terms of the overall story and character development.

I don't really see how that changes anything. Luke does suffer, but he kinda needs to. He really doesn't seem remotely traumatized by the wampa incident, nearly freezing, or crashing his speeder. It's only that final revelation of Vader's that really gets to him, and that's a vital part of Luke's development.

 

[HugeLobes]

It is in terms of what Luke is put through by the writers of the story.

Dude, this whole 'torture' thing really is reaching at this point.

 

[DigificWriter]

It is in terms of what Luke is put through by the writers of the story. In comparison to his path to ANH Luke's journey is fraught with great physical or mental suffering or anxiety.

No.

He is put through a crucible; he isn't "tortured".

 

[Campe]

It is in terms of what Luke is put through by the writers of the story. In comparison to his path to ANH Luke's journey is fraught with great physical or mental suffering or anxiety.

Let's be honest, Luke should have spent a lot of time institutionalized for the events in the OT. In the course of four years, he: loses his Aunt, Uncle, mentor and best friend, gets mauled by a beast, gets his hand cut off, finds out that his greatest enemy and the man he believed killed his father is actually his father, finds out the girl who he's had a bit of a crush on is actually his sister, has to face his father/worst enemy and defeat him, cuts his father/worst enemy's hand off, gets inundated by a lot of electricity and loses his father/worst enemy.

Torture may not be the exact word to describe what Luke went through, but none of it was pleasant. But let's be honest, if any of us went through just a few of these things, I can't imagine we would be in any sort of a good shape.

 

[fireproof78]

Dude, this whole 'torture' thing really is reaching at this point.

No.

He is put through a crucible; he isn't "tortured".

This term shouldn't hang up the whole conversation, even though I'm using it based upon exact terms of its definition.

What term is preferred then?

 

[DigificWriter]

Let's be honest, Luke should have spent a lot of time institutionalized for the events in the OT. In the course of four years, he: loses his Aunt, Uncle, mentor and best friend, gets mauled by a beast, gets his hand cut off, finds out that his greatest enemy and the man he believed killed his father is actually his father, finds out the girl who he's had a bit of a crush on is actually his sister, has to face his father/worst enemy and defeat him, cuts his father/worst enemy's hand off, gets inundated by a lot of electricity and loses his father/worst enemy.

Torture may not be the exact word to describe what Luke went through, but none of it was pleasant. But let's be honest, if any of us went through just a few of these things, I can't imagine we would be in any sort of a good shape.

The most appropriate term for Luke's experiences in the OT is the "refiner's fire", because that's what his experiences do: they refine him.

He still makes mistakes, though, because he's human.

 

[HugeLobes]

I think just 'suffering' or 'adversity' is fine.

In any case, bad things happen to Luke throughout the entire trilogy, so I'm not sure why you're pointing only to ESB. And why is it even a problem that he goes through these things? Trials and tribulation are a pivotal part of any hero's journey.

 

[fireproof78]

I think just 'suffering' or 'adversity' is fine.

In any case, bad things happen to Luke throughout the entire trilogy, so I'm not sure why you're pointing only to ESB. And why is it even a problem that he goes through these things? Trials and tribulation are a pivotal part of any hero's journey.

Because of how many trials happen to him in ESB. Its the quantity as well as the quickness to be thrown in to adversity after ANH that is unsettling to me.

 

[HugeLobes]

Because of how many trials happen to him in ESB. Its the quantity as well as the quickness to be thrown in to adversity after ANH that is unsettling to me.

Again though, most of those things don't seem to bother Luke. He's ready to smile and joke after the wampa thing and doesn't even seem phased by his speeder crash. Even when we get to the actual bad stuff, it's all vital for his character, and he still finishes the movie looking fine.

 

[mos6507]

why is it even a problem that he goes through these things? Trials and tribulation are a pivotal part of any hero's journey.

This. A good example that comes to mind is the accident Dr. Strange suffers which robs him of his ability to be a surgeon anymore. It was the permanent physical loss of function which drives his path forward. Same with Luke once he gets a hand lopped off, or Hiccup losing a leg in How to Train Your Dragon. This suffering is a rite of passage to maturity. The depiction of Frodo being weary at the end of Lord of the Rings is key. I think writers today have trouble depicting this because they live in a first-world bubble where real danger is a foreign concept.

 

[fireproof78]

Again though, most of those things don't seem to bother Luke. He's ready to smile and joke after the wampa thing and doesn't even seem phased by his speeder crash. Even when we get to the actual bad stuff, it's all vital for his character, and he still finishes the movie looking fine.

Ok. At this point I'll chalk it up to differences of interpretation. My understanding of human psychology is simply that, regardless of what Luke says, he is not "fine."

This. A good example that comes to mind is the accident Dr. Strange suffers which robs him of his ability to be a surgeon anymore. It was the permanent physical loss of function which drives his path forward. Same with Luke once he gets a hand lopped off, or Hiccup losing a leg in How to Train Your Dragon.

I don't have to like them or feel they are vital to the story.​