Discussion of Maquis cause

[JirinPanthosa]

From 'Love to hate' thread:

Uh, no, their rights weren't violated. The Federation, like any government, has the absolute right to sign treaties and conduct peace negotiations. (There are two choices: Sign the treaty, or war with Cardassia. Which would you choose?) And they wanted to relocate the colonists, so they wouldn't have to deal with Cardassians anymore, but in fact it was the colonists' idea to stay in the DMZ in the first place. Remember "Journey's End" (TNG)?

As to what I'd do if the land my house sits on was handed over in some manner? They'd have to compensate me for it, so I hardly think it's worth becoming a terrorist over. In the Federation, where there is a near-infinite amount of living space, this would be even more important.

You and I have very different philosophies about government. You see government as having an inherent right to control the lives of its citizens. I see government as existing only to defend citizens, their freedoms and in some cases to enable equality and quality of life.

The Federation has the right to sign treaties, but it does not have the right to seize personal property. Nor does it in any way have the right to infringe on its citizens' natural right to life, liberty and property. The government represents its people, it does not own them.

So yes, their rights were violated. Their property was handed to Cardassia in a political move to serve the interests of individuals in power in the Federation.

Any violation of the right to life, liberty and property on behalf of a government is not a legitimate government action, but a self-serving exercise of power against the powerless.

If I were in their position as I said I would have either agreed to be relocated or pursued a peaceful solution, and I may agree with resistance but certainly not terrorism. Eddington was out actively poisoning Cardassians and that wasn't justified, but the Maquis who only wanted to defend their colonies against Cardassian attacks were much more justified.

 

[T'Girl]

The way I've always seen it, the disputed territory was outside the borders of both the federation and the cardassian union, it existed between them, both wanted it for their own. The colonists in colonizing those disputed worlds left the boundries of the federation, perhaps with the expectations that after they established themselves the federation would grow to encompass their worlds.

For years the federation fought the union for possession of the disputed space, in the end both side recoqnized that neither side was going to be able to win it all, so they agreed to split it up between them.

Some of the colonists likely did retain their colonies, that disputed teritory was incorperated into the federation's territory.

The colonists who lost their homes position seemed to be, "why didn't you just keep fighting, dying and killing, so we could stay in our homes."

"That was fine with us."

 

[Marc Voorhees]

Public good at some point has to reign. Using the logic provided here, the government exists only to defend the citizens of the government. Fine.

Person A is killed in the defense of Person B due to the government's action. That is legitimate.

Person A is not sent to die in defense of Person B, Rather person B is asked(told) to give up a settlement such that Person A is able to live and continue living. This, in my mind is also legitimate.

At some point, War, Defense, Peace, all boil down to one thing. Which action saves the most number of lives. Which path is the best for the MOST NUMBER OF PEOPLE.

Peace with the Cardassians benefited the Federation FAR MORE than continuing a war.

Also,since the territories were disputed to begin with, T'Girl is right in saying that "The colonists in colonizing those disputed worlds left the boundries [sic] of the federation, perhaps with the expectations that after they established themselves the federation would grow to encompass their worlds.". This would be must the same as me moving to an unclaimed island, declaring it mine, and then if another country tried to claim it, expecting the US government to come to my rescue.

The peace was the best option.

 

[BillJ]

I didn't care for the Maquis. Not in Deep Space Nine and not in Voyager. They were whiny.

I do wonder though if the Cardassian war was kinda-sorta the Federation's "Vietnam"? An enemy that they should've easily triumphed over but dicked around with and it ended up costing them.

 

[Marc Voorhees]

I don't think any one power in the TNG/DS9 Universe was powerful enough to invade the other. I don't think it was a case of the Federation being that more powerful, I just think that the federation had less of an appetite for what most of the federation would have regarded as a 'border skirmish'.

I don't believe it was a case of dicking around, more a case of two evenly matched enemies who didn't want to deal with it anymore.

I also agree that they were whiners and I could have done without them.

 

[BillJ]

I don't think any one power in the TNG/DS9 Universe was powerful enough to invade the other. I don't think it was a case of the Federation being that more powerful, I just think that the federation had less of an appetite for what most of the federation would have regarded as a 'border skirmish'.

I don't believe it was a case of dicking around, more a case of two evenly matched enemies who didn't want to deal with it anymore.

It seems though that both the Galaxy- and Nebula-class starships had no issues dispatching top of the line Cardassian ships in "The Wounded". In that episode, there is a distinct feeling that the Federation is the more advanced of the two societies.

PICARD: Let me talk to my superiors, find out what's behind this. Give me one hour. The alternative is for us to continue firing at one other, and in such a contest, you would be at a disadvantage.

Even with the Phoenix prefix codes, the Cardassian warship was no match for it.

PICARD: Very well. Mister Worf, relay the prefix codes of the Phoenix to the Cardassian warship.
WORF: Sir, they will be able to dismantle its shields. The Phoenix will not have a chance.
PICARD: I cannot allow Maxwell to ambush that supply ship. Mister Worf, now.
WORF: Yes, Captain.
(a brief pause later)
DATA: Sir, the Cardassian warship is moving on the Phoenix.
PICARD: Mister Data, overlay weapon ranges of the two ships.
DATA: The warship is three hundred thousand kilometres from the Phoenix. It is opening fire. The Phoenix has taken a direct hit. The Phoenix is beginning evasive manoeuvres. It has positioned itself outside the weapons range of the opposing ship. The Phoenix has powered up both phasers and photon torpedoes. The Phoenix is firing photon torpedoes.
(and one of the lights on the screen goes out)
MACET: He has destroyed our warship.

 

[MacLeod]

From 'Love to hate' thread:

Uh, no, their rights weren't violated. The Federation, like any government, has the absolute right to sign treaties and conduct peace negotiations. (There are two choices: Sign the treaty, or war with Cardassia. Which would you choose?) And they wanted to relocate the colonists, so they wouldn't have to deal with Cardassians anymore, but in fact it was the colonists' idea to stay in the DMZ in the first place. Remember "Journey's End" (TNG)?

As to what I'd do if the land my house sits on was handed over in some manner? They'd have to compensate me for it, so I hardly think it's worth becoming a terrorist over. In the Federation, where there is a near-infinite amount of living space, this would be even more important.

You and I have very different philosophies about government. You see government as having an inherent right to control the lives of its citizens. I see government as existing only to defend citizens, their freedoms and in some cases to enable equality and quality of life.

The Federation has the right to sign treaties, but it does not have the right to seize personal property. Nor does it in any way have the right to infringe on its citizens' natural right to life, liberty and property. The government represents its people, it does not own them.

So yes, their rights were violated. Their property was handed to Cardassia in a political move to serve the interests of individuals in power in the Federation.

Any violation of the right to life, liberty and property on behalf of a government is not a legitimate government action, but a self-serving exercise of power against the powerless.

If I were in their position as I said I would have either agreed to be relocated or pursued a peaceful solution, and I may agree with resistance but certainly not terrorism. Eddington was out actively poisoning Cardassians and that wasn't justified, but the Maquis who only wanted to defend their colonies against Cardassian attacks were much more justified.

Have you heard of something called eminent domain?

Many Governments have the right to seize your land from you, they just have to compensate you for your loss. They want to build a new Naval Base and they need the land your house is on. They assert eminent domain.

Though we might disagree with certain policies a government takes they should act in a manner which benefits the majority. So With a population that could be in the hundreds of billions if not close to a trillion. Do you

A.>Sign a treaty whichshould prevent a war. or

B.>Go to war risking all those lives for the sake of a perhaps a few million?

So by siging the treaty weren't they acting in a way to defend their citizens by hopefully averting a war?

Some former Cardassian worlds became Federation worlds as a consequence of the treaty.

From the episode "Journey's End" it seemed as if the colonists where given a choice

a.>Re-location
b.>Renounce your Federation Citizenship and live under Cardassain rule.

So how exactly was the Federation restricting their right to life, liberty or property?

 

[Marc Voorhees]

I don't think any one power in the TNG/DS9 Universe was powerful enough to invade the other. I don't think it was a case of the Federation being that more powerful, I just think that the federation had less of an appetite for what most of the federation would have regarded as a 'border skirmish'.

I don't believe it was a case of dicking around, more a case of two evenly matched enemies who didn't want to deal with it anymore.

It seems though that both the Galaxy- and Nebula-class starships had no issues dispatching top of the line Cardassian ships in "The Wounded". In that episode, there is a distinct feeling that the Federation is the more advanced of the two societies.

PICARD: Let me talk to my superiors, find out what's behind this. Give me one hour. The alternative is for us to continue firing at one other, and in such a contest, you would be at a disadvantage.

Even with the Phoenix prefix codes, the Cardassian warship was no match for it.

PICARD: Very well. Mister Worf, relay the prefix codes of the Phoenix to the Cardassian warship.
WORF: Sir, they will be able to dismantle its shields. The Phoenix will not have a chance.
PICARD: I cannot allow Maxwell to ambush that supply ship. Mister Worf, now.
WORF: Yes, Captain.
(a brief pause later)
DATA: Sir, the Cardassian warship is moving on the Phoenix.
PICARD: Mister Data, overlay weapon ranges of the two ships.
DATA: The warship is three hundred thousand kilometres from the Phoenix. It is opening fire. The Phoenix has taken a direct hit. The Phoenix is beginning evasive manoeuvres. It has positioned itself outside the weapons range of the opposing ship. The Phoenix has powered up both phasers and photon torpedoes. The Phoenix is firing photon torpedoes.
(and one of the lights on the screen goes out)
MACET: He has destroyed our warship.

The problem I have with this is two fold.

1) if this were true that one brace of torpedoes would destroy any cardassian warship, then dicking around or not, the Federation would have won the border conflict. Vietnam was lost for several reasons, least of which was the supplying for a technically inferior North Vietnamese Army with modern weapons by the USSR, China, North Korea, etc. It was a shadow war.

2) The other thing is how may Galaxy/Nebula ships were around at this time. My guess, without doing any real research, would be that during this conflict Excelsior class ships were the workhorse of the fleet. Perhaps the Galor warships sent were simply of an older model, one that as more evenly matched with an excelsior and not the newer but fewer Galaxy/Nebulas. The Dardassian fleet may have just been a bit slower developing newer more advanced ships. Although, they would seem to have sprung into full production in DS9.

 

[MacLeod]

Do we even know what class of Cardassian Warship they were?

 

[Marc Voorhees]

Do we even know what class of Cardassian Warship they were?

A Valid point, I always assumed they were Galor III. But perhaps I was projecting.

MacLeod, your argument above is spot on in my mind

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Have you heard of something called eminent domain?

Many Governments have the right to seize your land from you, they just have to compensate you for your loss. They want to build a new Naval Base and they need the land your house is on. They assert eminent domain.

Yeah I looked it up last time this was brought up in an Insurrection thread and actually thats not how eminent domain works.

Apparently It seems the government has to go through a legal process involving courts before they can take anything.

Heres the link

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/eminent+domain

 

[BillJ]

1) if this were true that one brace of torpedoes would destroy any cardassian warship, then dicking around or not, the Federation would have won the border conflict. Vietnam was lost for several reasons, least of which was the supplying for a technically inferior North Vietnamese Army with modern weapons by the USSR, China, North Korea, etc. It was a shadow war.

It seems to me that the Federation simply didn't fight the war to win.

2) The other thing is how may Galaxy/Nebula ships were around at this time. My guess, without doing any real research, would be that during this conflict Excelsior class ships were the workhorse of the fleet. Perhaps the Galor warships sent were simply of an older model, one that as more evenly matched with an excelsior and not the newer but fewer Galaxy/Nebulas. The Dardassian fleet may have just been a bit slower developing newer more advanced ships. Although, they would seem to have sprung into full production in DS9.

Even if the Galaxy- and Nebula-classes saw little play in the Cardassian theater they would've been at least a couple years old by the time the conflict ended. Also, just because the two classes are newer doesn't mean that the weapons systems were as well. I doubt the Federation made a magic leap in every facet of starship design and equipment with the Galaxy- and Nebula-classes.

 

[Use of Time]

BillJ pretty much summed up my opinion of the Maquis. If they were intended to elicit sympathy from the audience then the writers failed to do that in my opinion. They were unlikable, unreasonable and a tad bit selfish. The Federation supposedly consists of over 100 member worlds. The Maquis expect them to keep fighting a war over a few thousand settlers that can easily live a healthy and fulfilling life anywhere else they choose within the far reaching Federation borders? I would have told them, "you guys want to go guerilla, renounce your citizenship and keep up the noble fight? Knock yourselves out, but we are done."

 

[Hartzilla2007]

BillJ pretty much summed up my opinion of the Maquis. If they were intended to elicit sympathy from the audience then the writers failed to do that in my opinion. They were unlikable, unreasonable and a tad bit selfish. The Federation supposedly consists of over 100 member worlds. The Maquis expect them to keep fighting a war over a few thousand settlers that can easily live a healthy and fulfilling life anywhere else they choose within the far reaching Federation borders? I would have told them, "you guys want to go guerilla, renounce your citizenship and keep up the noble fight? Knock yourselves out, but we are done."

Or the federation could have made sure the Cardassians were obeying the treaty and keeping the Demilitarized Zone demilitarized.

I mean seriously the Cardassains arming their colonists under the Federation's collective noses kind of makes the Federation look like a bunch of idiots.

 

[Use of Time]

BillJ pretty much summed up my opinion of the Maquis. If they were intended to elicit sympathy from the audience then the writers failed to do that in my opinion. They were unlikable, unreasonable and a tad bit selfish. The Federation supposedly consists of over 100 member worlds. The Maquis expect them to keep fighting a war over a few thousand settlers that can easily live a healthy and fulfilling life anywhere else they choose within the far reaching Federation borders? I would have told them, "you guys want to go guerilla, renounce your citizenship and keep up the noble fight? Knock yourselves out, but we are done."

Or the federation could have made sure the Cardassians were obeying the treaty and keeping the Demilitarized Zone demilitarized.

I mean seriously the Cardassains arming their colonists under the Federation's collective noses kind of makes the Federation look like a bunch of idiots.

Or the Federation just flat out didn't need it as much as the Cardassians. Could have been a "nice to have" but not a "must have" that would mean committing more lives and resources to obtain or police this disputed territory. The Federation Council has many races representing hundreds of planets spanning a huge part of the quadrant. Could have been as simple as a meeting where they decided to simply let them have it in lieu of a war.

 

[T'Girl]

It seems to me that the Federation simply didn't fight the war to win.

Or the federation lacked the will and ability to strip all of it's other borders and concentrate the fleet on the Cardassians. The Cardassians on the other hand (with no other enemies) could devote the bulk of their fleet to the conflict with the federation.

With Maxwell and the Phoenix, Maxwell destroyed a single Cardassian warship and a number of supply ships. If the Nebula class were top of the line and few in numbers (like the Galaxy class) then it's victory over the Cardassian ship might not have been the standard result of combat between the federation and the union ships.

Ships like the Phoenix and the Enterprise Dee could easily be the exception within Starfleet, with the majority of the fleet being lesser ships. Ships that would be combat equal to the average ship in the union's fleet.

I would have told them, "you guys want to go guerilla, renounce your citizenship and keep up the noble fight? Knock yourselves out, but we are done."

Problem with that is their guerrilla actions might reignite a full scale war with the union.

 

[Use of Time]

It seems to me that the Federation simply didn't fight the war to win.

Or the federation lacked the will and ability to strip all of it's other borders and concentrate the fleet on the Cardassians. The Cardassians on the other hand (with no other enemies) could devote the bulk of their fleet to the conflict with the federation.

With Maxwell and the Phoenix, Maxwell destroyed a single Cardassian warship and a number of supply ships. If the Nebula class were top of the line and few in numbers (like the Galaxy class) then it's victory over the Cardassian ship might not have been the standard result of combat between the federation and the union ships.

Ships like the Phoenix and the Enterprise Dee could easily be the exception within Starfleet, with the majority of the fleet being lesser ships. Ships that would be combat equal to the average ship in the union's fleet.

I would have told them, "you guys want to go guerilla, renounce your citizenship and keep up the noble fight? Knock yourselves out, but we are done."

Problem with that is their guerrilla actions might reignite a full scale war with the union.

Meh, I thought it was pretty obvious the Cardassians didn't have the guts to commit to a full scale war with the Federation. They struck me as race that was "all talk" somewhat akin to a bully. That's why I think messing around with the Federation settlers in the DMZ satisfied that urge, same with the Bajorans. It wasn't until the Dominion entered the picture that they finally decided to go all in. Right before the Dominion War, they were getting their asses handed to them by the Klingons and pretty easily I might add. I definitely think that the Federation had the edge with their fleet as well and the Cardassians knew it. The Cardassians were always desperate to become a major power in the Alpha/Beta Quadrant but I think that the Federation, Klingons and Romulans just considered them a pain in the ass.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

BillJ pretty much summed up my opinion of the Maquis. If they were intended to elicit sympathy from the audience then the writers failed to do that in my opinion. They were unlikable, unreasonable and a tad bit selfish. The Federation supposedly consists of over 100 member worlds. The Maquis expect them to keep fighting a war over a few thousand settlers that can easily live a healthy and fulfilling life anywhere else they choose within the far reaching Federation borders? I would have told them, "you guys want to go guerilla, renounce your citizenship and keep up the noble fight? Knock yourselves out, but we are done."

Or the federation could have made sure the Cardassians were obeying the treaty and keeping the Demilitarized Zone demilitarized.

I mean seriously the Cardassains arming their colonists under the Federation's collective noses kind of makes the Federation look like a bunch of idiots.

Or the Federation just flat out didn't need it as much as the Cardassians.

There is no question of needing either you make sure people hold up there end of a treaty or the treaty is worthless.

Otherwise you're nation looks stupid or cowardly and no one has any motivation what so ever not to just kick your ass and steal you stuff instead of trying to find a diplomatic solution.

 

[Use of Time]

Or the federation could have made sure the Cardassians were obeying the treaty and keeping the Demilitarized Zone demilitarized.

I mean seriously the Cardassains arming their colonists under the Federation's collective noses kind of makes the Federation look like a bunch of idiots.

Or the Federation just flat out didn't need it as much as the Cardassians.

There is no question of needing either you make sure people hold up there end of a treaty or the treaty is worthless.

Otherwise you're nation looks stupid or cowardly and no one has any motivation what so ever not to just kick your ass and steal you stuff instead of trying to find a diplomatic solution.

I doubt the Federation was concerned with looking cowardly. It was a quagmire that the Federation member worlds decided to stop committing resources toward. You don't conduct foreign policy with the goal of having everyone think you are a badass. The Cardassians knew that the Federation was powerful, they just liked to posture and pick with fringe colonies. The Federation didn't exactly turn a blind eye to what the Cardassians did either. When given the evidence, the Federation had no problem confronting them about it. They just weren't going to let the Maquis be the cause of a Federation/Cardassian war.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

You don't conduct foreign policy with the goal of having everyone think you are a badass.

True, but you also don't conduct foreign policy with the goal of having everyone think you are a moron who you can do what ever you want to because they aren't even paying attention to what you're doing despite stabbing them in the back at least twice at that point.