Discovery and "The Orville" Comparisons

[Noname Given]

It can't possibly be lamer than excusing a war crime by saying "You do realise the Klingons just declared war........?" as if that bit of circular logic wraps everything up neatly in a bow. So, it's not a war crime because they were at war? Huh?


Either you only heard about what happened secondhand and didn't see the episode yourself or you are deliberately misrepresenting what happened in the episode to support your argument.

1) The Krill warhead was literally destroyed in the upper atmosphere of the target colony seconds from impact, so they didn't have the time or ability to pursue the alternatives you suggest. They would have been killed and/or captured and tortured first, and 100,000+ civilian colonists would be dead as a result.
2) They did actually consider alternatives before deciding on the "light bomb" as a last resort and only did so regretfully. Never was it considered a humorous undertaking to be mocked, it was the grim business of war.
3) They did all this while undercover in occasionally malfunctioning holographic overlays, amidst the traditions of an unfamiliar species almost getting them caught, and on a hostile military ship where they were ultimately being pursued by the enemy and had to fight there way around the ship.
4) They did make sure to humanely secure the only civilians they knew of on the ship, which were the children. Everyone else appears to be either a combatant (even the teacher wore a military uniform and was training the children for holy war) or part of the religious hierarchy/theocratic government which acted like political officers on totalitarian military ships, gave the military their broader marching orders (while command decision aboard ship remained in military hands), and carried out public mutilations of captured human corpses, so a legitimate military target.
5) If they hadn't have killed the crew they could not have secured the ship or their escape and their mission to retrieve the contents of the holy book would have failed, and again, 100,000+ Union civilians would be dead.
6) After the fact, Mercer is left to confront the fact that he probably just radicalized all the students against humans even more than they already were, though there really was no choice in the matter. So it was treated seriously and regretfully.

No - I saw the episode in it's entirety and actually liked it. My response was more to Dennis haranguing of elements in ST: D he sees as war crimes; (probably thinking The Orville would never go there - but it did as well.); and how the character Ed Mecer's actions could also be considered a war crime in the strictest sense as well; because like Union ships - the Krill probably have Civilian families on them as well.

Personally, I thought it was the best episode The Orville's done to date.

 

[Gonzo]

Looks like spying in general isn't a war crime. About all I could find on it in a few minutes. Mercer and Malloy, if captured, could be treated as domestic criminals.



https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v2_rul_rule107_sectionb

Any captured soldier is considered a POW and held in internment camps, any spy that's captured is generally interrogated and then executed.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

No - I saw the episode in it's entirety and actually liked it. My response was more to Dennis haranguing of elements in ST: D he sees as war crimes; (probably thinking The Orville would never go there - but it did as well.); and how the character Ed Mecer's actions could also be considered a war crime in the strictest sense as well; because like Union ships - the Krill probably have Civilian families on them as well.

No, that's not how war crimes work. If the crew of a combatant vessel actively engaged in warfare decided to bring their families aboard ship, it's still a combatant vessel. You'd have to clearly mark your ship as a noncombatant vessel, disarm, and not engage in any active combat operations.

Do you think every foreign power with some respect for intergalactic law was committing a war crime every time they fired on the Enterprise-D just because they had families onboard? That was the fault of Starfleet for putting civilians aboard a combatant vessel that regularly faced off against hostile powers, however noble Starfleet's intentions were about not breaking up families when one or more of the parents were on long term space missions.

 

[Gonzo]

No, that's not how war crimes work. If the crew of a combatant vessel actively engaged in warfare decided to bring their families aboard ship, it's still a combatant vessel. You'd have to clearly mark your ship as a noncombatant vessel, disarm, and not engage in any active combat operations.

Do you think every foreign power with some respect for intergalactic law was committing a war crime every time they fired on the Enterprise-D just because they had families onboard? That was the fault of Starfleet for putting civilians aboard a combatant vessel that regularly faced off against hostile powers, however noble Starfleet's intentions were about not breaking up families when one or more of the parents were on long term space missions.

Civilians don't belong on ships of the line.

Even Picard worked that one out and made sure there were none on the Enterprise E.

He even got rid of the fish tank.

What Ed Mercer did on the Orville was correct as the Krill ship was planning on carrying out a war crime itself and as such deserves no pity or mercy whatsoever.

I am also fine with Lorca leaving Mudd, I would have shot him for treason so he couldn't be of any further use to the enemy in a time of war.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

Civilians don't belong on ships of the line.

Even Picard worked that one out and made sure there were none on the Enterprise E.

He even got rid of the fish tank.

What Ed Mercer did on the Orville was correct as the Krill ship was planning on carrying out a war crime itself and as such deserves no pity or mercy whatsoever.

I am also fine with Lorca leaving Mudd, I would have shot him for treason so he couldn't be of any further use to the enemy in a time of war.

Both episodes seemed to me, to involve a fair bit of too good to be true fantasy,

bungle around the ship like they did on the Orville and not get caught? Save all the children in that ridiculous fashion? A fair bit silly.

2 prisoners under such light guard blasting their way through an enemy ship with ease and getting away on a shuttle? yeah right.

.

 

[BillJ]

I am also fine with Lorca leaving Mudd, I would have shot him for treason so he couldn't be of any further use to the enemy in a time of war.

This is where the show completely departs from Star Trek for me. We're talking about shooting a civilian who was captured, and likely did what the enemy wanted to keep from being tortured.

 

[Roald]

It can't possibly be lamer than excusing a war crime by saying "You do realise the Klingons just declared war........?" as if that bit of circular logic wraps everything up neatly in a bow. So, it's not a war crime because they were at war? Huh?

Huh what? So it's a war crime just because one DSC hater says it is? It was survival, an extreme mean to cripple the ship in order to capture T'Khuvma. Wasn't unlike Balance Of Terror or countless other acts of war throughout Trek history. Get out of your ivory tower okay? The bomb scene was a great scene, don't paint those who liked it off as 'immoral war crime appologists' or something....

 

[Mudd]

This is where the show completely departs from Star Trek for me. We're talking about shooting a civilian who was captured, and likely did what the enemy wanted to keep from being tortured.

I keep telling you, this is Trump Trek.

 

[MvRojo]

He even got rid of the fish tank.

He was there in at least one of the movies:

Spoiler

 

[GeekUSACarl]

I keep telling you, this is Trump Trek.

And every time you say it, it sounds more and more stupid.

 

[BillJ]

And every time you say it, it sounds more and more stupid.

Actually, the more I see people talk about this show, the more convinced he is right. People wanting a Starfleet captain to shoot a civilian prisoner, the captain actually leaving said prisoner behind so he could be tortured some more. The Klingons being played as one-note brown terrorists without any redeeming qualities. These Klingons are ISIS stereotypes.

I changed my signature to Mara's line about the Klingons from "Day of the Dove". There's no way these Klingons and those Klingons are remotely identifiable as the same thing.

"We have always fought. We must. We are hunters, Captain, tracking and taking what we need. There are poor planets in the Klingon systems, we must push outward if we are to survive." - Mara, "The Day of the Dove"

 

[Locutus of Bored]

What Ed Mercer did on the Orville was correct as the Krill ship was planning on carrying out a war crime itself and as such deserves no pity or mercy whatsoever.

I am also fine with Lorca leaving Mudd, I would have shot him for treason so he couldn't be of any further use to the enemy in a time of war.

There's nothing wrong with considering or offering mercy or pity to your enemy, I just don't see where that would have been a possibility in the Orville episode apart from saving the children. It was a tradeoff between a few hundred(?) enemy soldiers on a combatant vessel or 100,000 Union civilians being killed.

And I strongly disagree about leaving Mudd behind. Unless he posed an active threat to your escape attempt, leaving him behind to face torture and death is inexcusable. He could have helped them escape and helped the injured Tyler along, and leaving him behind (not killing him) leaves him to share any intelligence he has on Lorca, albeit not much. Lorca should have been the better man instead of stooping to Mudd's level.

 

[Gonzo]

Both episodes seemed to me, to involve a fair bit of too good to be true fantasy,

bungle around the ship like they did on the Orville and not get caught? Save all the children in that ridiculous fashion? A fair bit silly.

2 prisoners under such light guard blasting their way through an enemy ship with ease and getting away on a shuttle? yeah right.

.

Orville: Well they are hardly going to be shot dead are they, I see the episode as more of a setup for what is to come than anything else.

Discovery: Hence why some including me think there could be more going on than it seems, I suspect Lorca may be wondering the same thing but decided to play along.

Ash Tyler is so obvous even Lorca doubted he would be kept alive so long, this is the same man who killed his crew to spare them from a fate that is much worse.

Even so Ash Tyler could end up being a red herring we will have to wait and see.

 

[BillJ]

And I strongly disagree about leaving Mudd behind. Unless he posed an active threat to your escape attempt, leaving him behind to face torture and death is inexcusable. He could have helped them escape and helped the injured Tyler along, and leaving him behind (not killing him) leaves him to share any intelligence he has on Lorca, albeit not much. Lorca should have been the better man instead of stooping to Mudd's level.

It was simply weak writing. Mudd now has a score to settle with Lorca. A need for revenge.

 

[Gonzo]

This is where the show completely departs from Star Trek for me. We're talking about shooting a civilian who was captured, and likely did what the enemy wanted to keep from being tortured.

Or Mudd was in on it from the start and is being paid well for his trouble.

He proved he cant be trusted so its either leave him there or kill him, Lorca erred on the side of caution and spared him.

 

[MvRojo]

And I strongly disagree about leaving Mudd behind. Unless he posed an active threat to your escape attempt, leaving him behind to face torture and death is inexcusable. He could have helped them escape and helped the injured Tyler along, and leaving him behind (not killing him) leaves him to share any intelligence he has on Lorca, albeit not much. Lorca should have been the better man instead of stooping to Mudd's level.

Mudd had already used a device that was capturing their communications. How could Lorca trust him not to have some sort of tracking device on him as well. And if he was trying to make it back to Discovery or anywhere else, you don't want the Klingons to know their locations and/or follow you.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

So, what are we to say of Kirk (with a smirk) shooting down a totally defenseless and crippled enemy?

 

[BillJ]

Or Mudd was in on it from the start and is being paid well for his trouble.

So you're okay with Lorca playing judge and jury without any evidence?

 

[GeekUSACarl]

Actually, the more I see people talk about this show, the more convinced he is right. People wanting a Starfleet captain to shoot a civilian prisoner, the captain actually leaving said prisoner behind so he could be tortured some more. The Klingons being played as one-note brown terrorists without any redeeming qualities. These Klingons are ISIS stereotypes.

I changed my signature to Mara's line about the Klingons from "Day of the Dove". There's no way these Klingons and those Klingons are remotely identifiable as the same thing.

"We have always fought. We must. We are hunters, Captain, tracking and taking what we need. There are poor planets in the Klingon systems, we must push outward if we are to survive." - Mara, "The Day of the Dove"

Of course you're more convinced he is right, you're the one who thinks that since Klingons are "one dimensional brown people" the show must be written for conservatives.

The ludicrous nature of your opinion is pretty obvious.

Negative qualities about the show = the MAGA crowd.
Doing bad things = THE MAGA CROWD

At best this is shallow projection of your politics. Everyone who supports Lorca shooting Mudd must be a trump supporter.

 

[BillJ]

Mudd had already used a device that was capturing their communications. How could Lorca trust him not to have some sort of tracking device on him as well. And if he was trying to make it back to Discovery or anywhere else, you don't want the Klingons to know their locations and/or follow you.

When Lorca starts shooting Klingons, the hope of sneaking off the ship disappears. He had four on his tail. But, I can't imagine Klingon ships don't have tracking devices already built in.