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Difference in late-00s fandom that hasn't been recognized

L

Lord Garth

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There's a different in fandom in the late-00s that hasn't been recognized by most people yet.

What am I talking about? Everyone, to use a hyperbole, expected the equally hyperbolic MAJOR REACTIONS!!!!1111 to the re-casting of the recasting of Kirk and Spock and now the set-designer for ST XI expects as much for the Enterprise.

I'm not saying that those people don't exist but their not as great in number as percieved. What does this have to with the difference between fandom in the 90's/early-00's and fandom in the late-00's?

During the 90's and the first half of this decade you had fans that were becoming jaded. You had fans who were reacting to things in Star Trek that they, for the first time for many, didn't like. This is speaking outside of the TOS/TNG split of course.

I'm sure that during the early-90's and even the mid-90's there were many fans who didn't expect they'd ever come across a Star Trek they didn't like if they liked both TOS and TNG. They anticipated DS9, they anticipated VOY, they thought it was great that TNG was going into movies.

For the first time during the latter-half of the 90's, the disassociation from loving all things Star Trek still felt new to these people. The ones who didn't like DS9, the ones who didn't like VOY, the ones who were unprepared for how much they wouldn't like the TNG movies.

This spilled over into ENT during 2001. There were people unprepared for what the 22nd Century actually ended up being portrayed as.

What's the common thing? The "upsetness", if you will, was still fresh. These fans were only becoming jaded.

Now, with ST XI, people were remembering the 90's and early-00's thinking that reaction to ST XI would be to the same extreme and with the same intesnity as ENT or, before it, DS9 and VOY.

Admit it, the ST XI forum isn't anywhere near as bad as ENT was. Deep down you know it.

Yet there are people who dismissed ST XI from Day One. What's the difference between now and 2001?

It all goes back to becoming jaded. Once you already are jaded, then you won't care who does what to anything anymore. Once you expect that you won't like something, you won't become outraged that you don't. You won't become as furious anymore over the fact that you didn't get what you want. You'll become used to it.

The result? The reaction to ST XI because it's come out so much later than the late-90's/early-00's isn't going to be as passionate as the reaction to early productions that weren't approved of. These people have cooled off. The negative feelings aren't as fresh as they used to be and will level off as a result.

Meanwhile, the people looking forward to the new movie are looking forward to the first new Star Trek in a while and those on the fence will stay on the fence until the movie is released.

What about the arguments? I think those have come more out of habit than anything else. There are people who want to dislike each other and they will continue to whether they're talking about ST XI or not and will find some way to lay blame on each other somehow. What they're arguing about really has nothing to do with Star Trek at all, they could be arguing about anything and they would still have the same animosity towards each other because they've decided their not going to like each other period.

So the I think situation has evolved from what it was before but not too many people have pulled back enough to notice.
 
I also wonder if some just want the thing to fail which would be sad. I liked DS9, VOY to an extent ,and I loved Enterprise (saw a few TOS eps in my early teens but found TNG when I was 18 and was hooked). I'm hoping for something great with XI.
 
Lord Garth said:
There's a different in fandom in the late-00s that hasn't been recognized by most people yet.

Oh, I have. I remember the ferocity of the DS9/VOY board wars well. I remember the reaction to Chakotay and Seven's pairing. I remember when the phrase 'Berman and Braga' had the kind of connotations one reserves for Adolf Hitler.

Admit it, the ST XI forum isn't anywhere near as bad as ENT was. Deep down you know it.

True. I think there's far more parody and mockery about intransigent fan positions on this board than actual intransigence. You're more likely to see Samuel T. Cogley faking outrage over a trivial matter than genuine outrage.

That certainly wasn't always the case.

And, frankly, I think the cause is a lot simpler than jadedness and cooling off.

The fanbase - on this board - is smaller. Star Trek hasn't produced a new hour of new programming since '05. Those folks who go off and move to watch new shows other pursuits have done so, indeed, that is what I have done since 2002. The fanbase is not merely more jaded, it's declined. This place is a lot more muted than when I left it, and a hell of a lot more reasonable.

But if Trek XI becomes a big hit, that means new fans. That means a rise in board numbers... and I wouldn't be surprised if the old ways return.
 
Considering what they're doing - recasting Kirk & Co. and so forth - the negative reaction has been pretty mild.

The internet hasn't exploded at all! What a dud! :lol:
 
Re: Difference in late-00s fandom that hasn't been recognize

There were TOS fans enraged by the fact that they were making ST:TMP - and daring to replace Spock (with Xon), redesign the Enterprise, order new theme music, change the uniforms and give the Klingons a spinal column that stretched over their heads. After joining a ST club in 1980, I met diehard TOS fans who'd always refused to watch TAS or read ST novels, because they weren't "real".

A sector of the ST community will always be opposed to change. Not very IDIC of them. ;)
 
Re: Difference in late-00s fandom that hasn't been recognize

Therin of Andor said:
A sector of the ST community will always be opposed to change. Not very IDIC of them. ;)

Though there is a huge difference between flat-out not accepting change and accepting change (cinematically and scriptually), but also wanting something to remain in the same literary universe (story-wise and visually) as all of the previous products :)
 
Re: Difference in late-00s fandom that hasn't been recognize

I'll be fine with XI as long as it isn't a complete disastrophy. I would imagine some of the reaction here is due to the fact Nimoy is in this one and has said he likes the script. If he weren't I could see more outrage.
 
Re: Difference in late-00s fandom that hasn't been recognize

^ Actually, I would be most disappointed if they have used Nimoy but its not a canon production. That would just smell of "Hey, we've got Nimoy! And you're stupid enough to buy tickets to see him as Spock again!"
 
Re: Difference in late-00s fandom that hasn't been recognize

I don't think it's jaded so much as showing off in a way.

If you can post long screeds against the show you like, you get to show off just how much canon you know. You get to cast yourself as the one TRUE fan, defending trek from being raped by the new movie. You still show that you're passionate about Trek, just not this Trek.

A jaded person might think it's gonna suck, but they're more in the mindset of "Well, I just won't bother with it", not "I'll watch it 16 times, catalogue everything wrong with it, post long rants all over the web, and whine all day". I just can't personally not notice that there's a pretty big element of showing off here.

But I think the reason that some people are bashing is that deep down, they're afraid that their geeky guilty pleasure might become *shock* *horror* popular. Because it's hard to say that they have better taste than the unwashed masses when the unwashed masses like the same things you do.
 
Re: Difference in late-00s fandom that hasn't been recognize

BalthierTheGreat said:
But I think the reason that some people are bashing is that deep down, they're afraid that their geeky guilty pleasure might become *shock* *horror* popular. Because it's hard to say that they have better taste than the unwashed masses when the unwashed masses like the same things you do.

Perhaps. Or, perhaps, its that the movie may be the first TV/movie Trek product not set in that surprisingly tight and well-weaved universe that has been created by a hundred writers over the course of 40 years :)
 
Re: Difference in late-00s fandom that hasn't been recognize

^^ I'd have to wonder if he would even do it in that case. To bring him out of retirement from films it would have to be a meaningful role for him and something he knew the fans would like. Otherwise he'd here about it at conventions.
 
Re: Difference in late-00s fandom that hasn't been recognize

I don't think Nimoy is that concerned about the continuity and wholeness of the Trek universe. What he is concerned about is the character of Spock, and how he is going to be treated/handled. I suspect that is his reason for doing the movie (besides the paycheque), and should be no indication of the canonicity of the production :)
 
Re: Difference in late-00s fandom that hasn't been recognize

mada101 said:
Though there is a huge difference between flat-out not accepting change and accepting change (cinematically and scriptually), but also wanting something to remain in the same literary universe (story-wise and visually) as all of the previous products :)

No difference at all. I have ST fanzines here, dated 1980, that have angry essays in them boasting how ST:TMP "must" be set in an alternate universe, and refusing to acknowledge that the movie is "real" ST.
 
Re: Difference in late-00s fandom that hasn't been recognize

Therin of Andor said:
No difference at all. I have ST fanzines here, dated 1980, that have angry essays in them boasting how ST:TMP "must" be set in an alternate universe, and refusing to acknowledge that the movie is "real" ST.

There is, however, one matter of difference. TMP was certainly written and produced with the intention of remaining in the same universe. Sure, there is a huge visual redesign overall, but most of these are explained away by the refit of the Enterprise (though admittedly no such explanation was given for the Klingons). And it includes the same actors reprising their roles from the series.

All Star Trek produced since then has been designed to be intentionally in the same 'universe', even if its pretensions for being so came under fierce criticism - ENT being an excellent example.

But where does the new film stand in all of this? Like I've said before, I think it will have a kind of ambiguous continuity, like Superman Returns had to the first Superman movie, or this summer's The Incredible Hulk will have to Ang Lee's Hulk. And that approach to continuity has not yet been used.
 
Re: Difference in late-00s fandom that hasn't been recognize

Kegek said:
Therin of Andor said:
No difference at all. I have ST fanzines here, dated 1980, that have angry essays in them boasting how ST:TMP "must" be set in an alternate universe, and refusing to acknowledge that the movie is "real" ST.

There is, however, one matter of difference. TMP was certainly written and produced with the intention of remaining in the same universe. Sure, there is a huge visual redesign overall, but most of these are explained away by the refit of the Enterprise (though admittedly no such explanation was given for the Klingons). And it includes the same actors reprising their roles from the series.

I read somewhere that TMP was, visually anyway, close to what they wanted for show to start with anyway. Flush readouts, a few touch screen consoles, sleek designs, decent alien makeup, etc etc. Thats what Gene envisioned in 60's, at least i think so anyway so don't crucify me.

TMP was set on a much mature Enterprise. It was as if it had gone through puberty and survived. In that it was a kind of serious story, not jokes, no digs, no primary colours, no cheesey fight scenes or kiss the girl scenes, etc.


But things change for the better expectations that each new decade brings with it. Thats why TMP had to change visually and story wise.

Its not as if a group of fans can change whats going to happen in the movie industry just because they disagree with Spocks new ear shape or Simon Pegg having strawberry blonde hair rather than black.

The only way that will happen is if they work for a studio and work their way up the promotion ladder and become the Fan for the Fans.
 
Re: Difference in late-00s fandom that hasn't been recognize

Kegek said:
TMP was certainly written and produced with the intention of remaining in the same universe.

IIRC, JJ Abrams has said the same for his new film.
 
Re: Difference in late-00s fandom that hasn't been recognize

^
He certainly has. But I think he means consistent in the sense that this is not, say, Ron Moore's Battlestar Galactica. My guess is it is like Superman Returns, only a tad more faithful than that program is (not ignoring the sequels in this case). The film is essentially a remake that is in canon with earlier material, which by itself is a bizarrely grey area.

And Classic Fan, there are elements of TMP's visual design one can see in "The Cage" - a subtler colour scheme, for instance. So you're probably right sui generis, even if there are other influences (clearly, Wise had the uniforms from his Andromeda Strain in mind when it came to TMP's).
 
Re: Difference in late-00s fandom that hasn't been recognize

ancient said:
Considering what they're doing - recasting Kirk & Co. and so forth - the negative reaction has been pretty mild.

The internet hasn't exploded at all! What a dud! :lol:
We're all waiting for the inevitable "Kirk in drag" scene 'til we explode. ;)
 
Re: Difference in late-00s fandom that hasn't been recognize

Therin of Andor said:
No difference at all. I have ST fanzines here, dated 1980, that have angry essays in them boasting how ST:TMP "must" be set in an alternate universe, and refusing to acknowledge that the movie is "real" ST.

All visual differences in TMP can be very, very obviously explained away by the fact that the in-universe timeline has moved on. Abrams' film is set between eras that we already know, so there are certain things that they'll have to do if the film is going to be set in the same continuity.

I generally agree with one of the above posters; that the film will be canonically ambiguous. The script will likely be canonical, but the visuals won't fit. As such, it runs the danger of alienating the classic fanbase as well as the people looking for a total reboot.
 
Re: Difference in late-00s fandom that hasn't been recognize

Lord Garth said:
Admit it, the ST XI forum isn't anywhere near as bad as ENT was. Deep down you know it.

True enough.

But then, at this point the movie is still an entire YEAR away. ;)

And further, not much has been leaked yet about the film. So fans don't have much to bitch about - yet. I have full faith and confidence in the Star Trek fanbase when it comes to finding things to bitch about. Just give 'em a couple of information leaks...and a bit of time. :lol:


In other words, we'll get back to you in December '08. :p

But one thing we have going for us in here is that there likely won't be 'shipper wars over a single film. Shipper wars generally take a season or so to develop as the writers have time to present various possibilities which people glob on to. I don't think the writers will have the screen time available in a 2 hour film to to give us anything that will turn into a full-blown 'shipper war. And that was a large part of the problem in the ENT forum. ;)
 
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