And I'm sure he hated every minute of it
Sex with a slave is rape by definition. I don't see anything funny in that.
Did The Jihad live up to its potential?
- Thread starter Mirror Tuvix
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Sex with a slave is rape by definition. I don't see anything funny in that.
Lara's forward nature may have taken him aback a bit. He had no time to explore it or adjust his approach. The fate of the galaxy and all...
Ok, I guess when you put it that way. I always assumed it was consensual because I don't believe Captain Kirk would have had sex with her if he felt he was forcing her in any way.
I believe if he sensed any resistance or discomfort he would have stopped immediately.
It was never my intention to offend
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I guess we're just seeing it from different angles. There are many men and women that aren't comfortable with assertiveness, or different levels of assertiveness. Some people like others to be upfront with them, some are more comfortable with a slower approach.
I actually don't think it's limited to men or women being approached. Some men like their women aggressive, commanding, strong. Some prefer women that are more demure, conservative. And of course there's a lot that fall in the middle. Ditto for women.
I don't mind strong, attractive women. But if one came up to me such as Lara did with Kirk I might be like "woe, slow down just a bit, I'd like to get to know you a bit first".
That's exactly the problem. Roddenberry assumed it was consensual too and wrote the scene that way, but he was wrong. Saying yes means nothing unless the speaker has the freedom to say no without punishment. Drusilla did not have that freedom, therefore she could not give meaningful consent, no matter how much she acted like she wanted it. But Roddenberry was more interested in indulging the sexual fantasy/fetish of being "given" a beautiful slave girl than in a thoughtful consideration of consent issues. Not only was consent far more poorly understood in the 1960s, but Roddenberry was what we'd now consider a serial sexual harasser, if not worse. (And so were many other male authority figures of the era. It was pretty much seen as normal and expected for producers to use the "casting couch" to seduce beautiful starlets.) Normally, Kirk wasn't written as sinking to that level; by '60s standards, he was a perfect gentleman. But Drusilla was the exception. That's why the scene bugs me so much.
I just never thought of the scene in those terms because I always believe that he would never force himself on someone unwilling. It is possible that despite her status as a slave that she wanted him.
It's one of those things I grade on a curve to an extent. Would it be acceptable today? Absolutely not, or well it shouldn't be. I guess there probably are current shows that have similar scenes, I don't know (I'm not a huge fan of shows today).
But in the 1960's concepts were different. The scene as it was played out seemed to indicate that it was an otherwise consensual rendezvous.
Frankly when I made my comment I was thinking of a scene in the film Total Recall (1990) when Richter's right hand man commented that he would be mad too if his wife were in a relationship with Quaid (I'm paraphrasing) and Richter says "you think she enjoyed it" and his henchman replied mock seriously "No, I'm sure she hated every minute of it". For whatever reason reading the prior comment that he did it to preserve their lives basically that popped into my head about Kirk.
Plus are we absolutely sure he actually slept with Drusilla. Unlike when he's putting his boots on in "Wink of an Eye" it's not 100% clear he slept with her. Most of us inferred he did, but in complete fairness, they could have sipped wine and talked about old times all night. It's been a while since I watched the episode, but if I remember correctly while it is strongly inferred it was never explicit they slept together.
As I recall, the episode title card was the only place where the term appeared. To the best of my recollection, it was never pronounced, much less defined, in any of the dialogue. I think ADF barely mentioned it in the book.
And thinking back, Lara reminds me a lot of Vash.
Actually, Tchar himself mentions it.
"My government fears this, so the theft of the Soul of Alar has been kept secret. But we must recover it before my people discover it gone and go mad, launch a jihad, a holy war on the galaxy."
"My government fears this, so the theft of the Soul of Alar has been kept secret. But we must recover it before my people discover it gone and go mad, launch a jihad, a holy war on the galaxy."
Yeah, but I'm not talking about him. I'm talking about the real-life guy who wrote him. I'm saying that Roddenberry's sexism showed through there because he made Kirk do something that, by all rights, he never should or would have done. Like I said, TOS's worst sexist moments are mostly in Roddenberry scripts.
We can't understand fiction if we engage with it exclusively under the assumption that it's "real" and that the characters acted according to their own motivations. Fiction is a creation of real people, and analyzing the creators' thought processes, as well as acknowledging and critiquing their mistakes, is important too.
Foster uses the word in the same scene as in the aired episode, but in a different part of it, and he doesn't define the term as directly as the aired dialogue does, though it's evident from context.
I stand corrected.
BTW, I think somebody raised a question about Loom Aleek-Om, from "Yesteryear"; the general consensus is that he was an Aurelian, rather than a Skorr (and that's how he was identified in the script).
BTW, I think somebody raised a question about Loom Aleek-Om, from "Yesteryear"; the general consensus is that he was an Aurelian, rather than a Skorr (and that's how he was identified in the script).
Yes. They have very similar designs, but not identical ones. Tchar had a thicker neck, a more predatory beak and talons, a heavier upper body, and a neater, pointier spread of head feathers, and didn't have the "briefs"-like ruff of feathers that Aleek-Om had around his waist. It's like they started with Aleek-Om's design but changed it to be more eagle-like and formidable. I suppose it's possible that it could just be the difference between a burly warrior and a scrawny historian of the same species, but the differences seem substantial enough that I tend to assume the Skorr and Aurelians are cousin species of the same genus. It would be interesting to explore how that came about.
Yes Lara was way too assertive for me. Maybe thats how they chatted up the guys on her planet. Maybe she thought Kirk was acting like a coy girl. Who knows?
Even if George Clooney was that persistent with me I'd just say back off.
OK not really if George Clooney actually spoke to me I'd swoon but for any other guy its just too much.
Saying that I wonder why they put a character in like that. Was it to teach Kirk a lesson? Was it meant to be ironic?.
Perhaps Kirk feared death by snu-snu.
She was no more assertive than most '60s, '70s, or '80s TV male leads were toward their various love interests of the week. It seems like a double standard to have a problem with that.
True. But I don't see why it's a double standard. I mean if I were a lady I wouldn't like that either (well, at least I don't think so, I've never been a woman so who could say
). But it's all personal preferences. Some guys would love a lady like that. For me, it'd probably make me a bit uncomfortable at first, at least until I got to know them a little better. But I probably wouldn't be attracted to a meek and shy woman (at least at first, again once I got to know them maybe that would be different). I can be flexible.
Finding the same behavior expected in a man but unacceptable in a woman is the very definition of a double standard.
I know. My point was that just because someone might find that off putting from a woman doesn't mean we think it's ok in reverse either.
In Captain Kirk's case I think he was confident, but I never thought he was aggressive. If he sensed a mutual attraction he'd make his moves, but he wasn't pushy (except in cases like Sylvia in Catspaw, but that was intentional on his part to save his ship and crew-I don't think it was his preferred style).
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That's what I always thought, as well.
And does anyone else think Lara's odd manner of speech is like the way everybody talks on Firefly?
Nichelle didn't do Lara's voice.
Yep...there's not a chance in hell that any series filmed today would do an episode with the word "Jihad" in the title...
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