Did The Jihad live up to its potential?

[Commishsleer]

Of course, but that's not the point. I'm not saying he didn't have game, I'm saying he didn't let it distract him from his duty in the middle of an active mission. Well, he somewhat did with fake Ruth, and he definitely did with Edith Keeler, but Edith was anything but a casual fling, and from Kirk's reaction to Ruth, it seems she wasn't either. The point is, given the urgency of the mission to find the Soul of Alar, and given the extreme and constant hazards of the mad planet, it's perfectly in character for Kirk to table any romantic interest in Lara and stay focused on the mission. If they'd run into each other after the mission, when there wasn't anything more important at stake, they might very well have ended up making some "green memories."




Again, he was only using Lenore to investigate her father. With Miri, he sweet-talked her because he needed her help and allegiance for the sake of the mission, and the episode was written in a time when it was taken for granted that the way to get on a woman's good side was with flirtation and flattery. In both cases, it was in service to other goals that had nothing to do with his hormones. With Areel, she was an old flame from his past, so the relationship was already there beforehand.

And most importantly, none of them were his direct subordinates. He was Rand's superior officer, so romancing her would've been sexual harassment. It would've been a gross abuse of authority and totally unconscionable. So it's a completely, profoundly different situation from the other cases. Granted, workplace harassment was seen as normal and routine in the '60s, and there was certainly plenty of it going on in Gene Roddenberry's office, but even at the time, they knew it would've been incompatible with military discipline for a captain to seduce someone under his direct command. (This is why Kirk was so uncomfortable with Helen Noel in "Dagger of the Mind." A deleted scene revealed that he'd only danced with her at the Christmas party because he'd thought she was a visiting civilian. On learning that she was a member of his crew, he was mortified at the accidental breach of discipline.)

I just thought Kirk wasn't into Lara. People can be too assertive and she wouldn't take no for an answer. Which is one of the main things I remember from the episode (with a laugh).

The thing about Rand and Kirk is that I thought there was zero chemistry there. Kirk gave more of his charm to everyone else on board. Even Scotty and Spock garnered more smiles out of Kirk than Rand ever did. I know that Kirk said he wanted to be able to "date" Rand but I never felt that he really was infatuated with her as a person or that there was any unrequited love there. I thought Kirk's lament that he wanted to be able to date someone (not specifically Rand) but his first loyalty was to his ship and his command so a woman would get in the way.

Perhaps if Rand had been the yeoman instead of Noel or in Shore Leave maybe I could see them together.
Also I don't think the casting was right for such a role.Whitney appeared too smart to just be some infatuated young girl. I think she would have need to show more gumption or something to make her worthy of Kirk's love. Making coffee under difficult circumstances doesn't cut it for me. Perhaps if she'd replaced Helen Noel and managed a jail break...

 

[Grendelsbayne]

As regards to Kirk's womanising in TOS - there was a lot of it even if most of it was in the line of duty.. Kissing Ariel Shaw on the bridge, openly romancing Lenore about the ship (I know it was a ruse), going off with mechanical Ruth, shore leave on the pleasure planet. To me it didn't seem that Kirk was suffering much in the romance department.

But you had Kirk complaining that he couldn't romance Rand because of "duty" and a couple of episodes later he was chatting up Lenore or using his charm on Shaw or Miri. I wish they had just not bothered with the theme of Kirk's "sad fate" married to the ship. I think that was a hangover from Pike's character. To me Kirk was clearly a womaniser in TOS but he never let it get in the way of duty until perhaps "Requiem for Methuselah" and initial version of COTEOF. In the Menagerie they talk of Kirk's exploits with the ladies. We saw him with was it 3 ex-girlfriends in the series.

Kirk definitely had the charm to be a womanizer, but I disagree that he actually was one.

Edith Keeler and Miramani aside (situations which had very obvious extraordinary circumstances and were anything but shallow), I struggle to think of any actual Kirk dalliance which was both real on his part (not a ruse) and actually voluntary on his part (not in any way forced).

We saw a handful of his ex-girlfriends, which really doesn't say anything, imo. Most people have exes. And Crazy Janice aside, his exes don't seem to have any major complaints about him as a gentleman. Nor does he automatically try to slip back in the door 'for old time's sake' as one would expect from a womanizer.

And we saw maybe a handful of situations where he seemed generally interested in a (newly encountered) woman, but those pretty much always involved simple charming conversation and not much else.

 

[Commishsleer]

Kirk definitely had the charm to be a womanizer, but I disagree that he actually was one.

Edith Keeler and Miramani aside (situations which had very obvious extraordinary circumstances and were anything but shallow), I struggle to think of any actual Kirk dalliance which was both real on his part (not a ruse) and actually voluntary on his part (not in any way forced).

We saw a handful of his ex-girlfriends, which really doesn't say anything, imo. Most people have exes. And Crazy Janice aside, his exes don't seem to have any major complaints about him as a gentleman. Nor does he automatically try to slip back in the door 'for old time's sake' as one would expect from a womanizer.

And we saw maybe a handful of situations where he seemed generally interested in a (newly encountered) woman, but those pretty much always involved simple charming conversation and not much else.

Depends what you mean by womanizer.
I meant it as a person who dates a lot but not as a person who is playing women. As you say there is nothing to suggest that he was anything but a gentlemen.

He seemed genuinely interested in Miranda and Rayna as well as Edith and Miramanee. So I suppose thats 4 romances in 3 years. Given that Kirk "reconnected" with Ruth and went to the pleasure planet in that time I he can hardly complain that being a captain of a ship stops his from dating. Maybe not as much as he did before that 5 year mission but I'm sure that applies to a lot of people on board.

 

[Timo]

Depends what you mean by womanizer.
I meant it as a person who dates a lot but not as a person who is playing women. As you say there is nothing to suggest that he was anything but a gentlemen.

And that, too, is subject to, well, subjective interpretation of the terminology. Is Kirk "being a gentleman" or "playing the woman" when he uses his charms to pump information about Anton Karidian from his daughter, or to distract Miranda Jones' telepathy at a key moment? Is there a difference?

He seemed genuinely interested in Miranda and Rayna as well as Edith and Miramanee. So I suppose thats 4 romances in 3 years.

...If Kirok counts as Kirk, that is. But does "genuinely interested" mean "romance"? That is, does the latter term imply a hope of establishing a relationship of nontrivial duration, which apparently would be out of the question for Kirk in all circumstances (even if allowed for Kirok)? Or is Kirk just having a discussion with an interesting person of irrelevant gender?

Given that Kirk "reconnected" with Ruth and went to the pleasure planet in that time I he can hardly complain that being a captain of a ship stops his from dating.

Not only would shore leave be a special case, this is a special shore leave - Kirk and the others are all drunk as skunks, giving McCoy's brutal death but a shrug before moving on to more interesting matters such as wrestling with Finnegan.

Kirk isn't really being a captain there, dismissing Rodriguez' report on local life with "our instruments must be defective" and a smile.

The counterpoint comes from the two explicit cases where Kirk is indicated to have been interested yet inhibited, with Rand and Noel. Although it's not necessarily a case of Kirk being interested in either Rand or Noel - the issue of him not being allowed to date just arises in connection with these women, both of whom have for their part a declared interest in Kirk.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Depends what you mean by womanizer.
I meant it as a person who dates a lot but not as a person who is playing women. As you say there is nothing to suggest that he was anything but a gentlemen.

He seemed genuinely interested in Miranda and Rayna as well as Edith and Miramanee. So I suppose thats 4 romances in 3 years. Given that Kirk "reconnected" with Ruth and went to the pleasure planet in that time I he can hardly complain that being a captain of a ship stops his from dating. Maybe not as much as he did before that 5 year mission but I'm sure that applies to a lot of people on board.

I don't recall anything specific about him being interested in Miranda (i'm not doubting you, just giving my recollection). I personally did think there was definitely something there with Dr. Mulhall (Return to Tomorrow) as well, though he of course did not act on it - that would be another Rand like situation where he held back for discipline's sake. Rayna, yes, he definitely fell in love with her, which, imo, is the worst part of that episode. His instant (the whole episode takes place in like 1 afternoon) head over heels affection there was so wildly out of character that it honestly felt like the original script called for him to be under some sort of alien influence and then they just dropped that part without changing the effects.

But - in all honesty I never had an extensive dating history, I just found the right person and got married - is 4-6 short-lived romances in 3 years really considered in any way remarkable? Maybe it's enough that he shouldn't be complaining about not having any love life, but I don't see at all how it makes sense to call him a womanizer, even in the sense of just dating 'a lot'.

 

[Timo]

Also, how many of us lead such mobile lives that they could be compared to Kirk's? "Short-lived" is sort of built in. And never mind that Kirk's life is in grave danger every two weeks or so; he's in an executive position; and he is in the limelight of diplomacy. The statistics we quote to contrast with Kirk's should be very carefully thought out...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

I just thought Kirk wasn't into Lara.

I just don't see any reason to assume that. TOS fairly consistently showed that Kirk was a professional, that he focused on his duty and saved his romantic pursuits for when he was off-duty, unless he was mind-controlled or faking a seduction to advance the mission. Most of the exceptions were cases where he fell genuinely in love with a woman rather than just pursuing a casual fling. And "The Jihad" was all about the mission. The situation was urgent and Kirk didn't have the luxury to set aside his duty. So of course he didn't respond to Lara's flirtations in that particular situation. It says nothing about how he'd react to her if they met when he wasn't on a mission.

The thing about Rand and Kirk is that I thought there was zero chemistry there.

I don't disagree, but you still seem to be overlooking the fact that Rand was his direct subordinate and it therefore would've been an abuse of power, essentially a sexual assault, for him to pursue her. We're lucky that TOS didn't go that route, that it kept Kirk professional where his officers were concerned.

Edith Keeler and Miramani aside (situations which had very obvious extraordinary circumstances and were anything but shallow), I struggle to think of any actual Kirk dalliance which was both real on his part (not a ruse) and actually voluntary on his part (not in any way forced).

Unfortunately, there was Drusilla in "Bread and Circuses." The episode may have tried to make it look like he was "pressured" into sleeping with her, but the fact was, he had the power to say no while Drusilla, as a slave, did not. It's TOS's lowest ebb where sexuality is concerned.

Kirk's romancing of Shahna in "The Gamesters of Triskelion" didn't strike me as a ruse -- more like genuine compassion. In that case, they were both slaves, so I guess the consent issues cancel out.

Odona in "The Mark of Gideon" also stands out. He had no reason to manipulate her, and he wasn't under any kind of mind control or coercion, although the whole situation was manipulated to push them together and make him care for her. Still, he went along with it readily enough.

He seemed genuinely interested in Miranda and Rayna as well as Edith and Miramanee.

No, Miranda Jones was definitely a case of seduction as a ploy, an attempt to distract her from Spock's mind meld with Kollos. It was one of his most brazenly manipulative seduction attempts, which is why it's so satisfying that she shoots him down utterly.

Rayna, yes, he definitely fell in love with her, which, imo, is the worst part of that episode. His instant (the whole episode takes place in like 1 afternoon) head over heels affection there was so wildly out of character that it honestly felt like the original script called for him to be under some sort of alien influence and then they just dropped that part without changing the effects.

So many of the episode's problems would've been fixed if they'd just changed "four hours" in the script to "four days."

 

[Timo]

Unfortunately, there was Drusilla in "Bread and Circuses." The episode may have tried to make it look like he was "pressured" into sleeping with her, but the fact was, he had the power to say no while Drusilla, as a slave, did not.

And, of course, odds are that he did.

After all, he doesn't believe in losing. What better way to show that than to spend his "last night on almost-Earth" playing chess and discussing politics with said Drusilla, confident that the two peeping toms will be grinding their teeth somewhere nearby?

Odona in "The Mark of Gideon" also stands out. He had no reason to manipulate her, and he wasn't under any kind of mind control or coercion, although the whole situation was manipulated to push them together and make him care for her. Still, he went along with it readily enough.

Not under mind control? He thought he was aboard his own starship. He wasn't, so clearly he wasn't in possession of his other faculties, either. Probably a worse case of not-Kirk than Kirok ever was - he wasn't feverish, at any rate.

So many of the episode's problems would've been fixed if they'd just changed "four hours" in the script to "four days."

But Spock and McCoy failing to achieve results in four days, and being happy with that, is inconceivable. Kirk spurting far ahead of them in just four hours by making all the right guesses and using his seductive powers to once again thwart the opponent makes Kirk Da Man.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Damian]

Kirk is an unusual case study. Part of it was the show being made in the 1960's. Star Trek always tried to be forward thinking, but it was also still a product of it's time. So in some respects we have to grade it on a curve. Some of Kirk's romancing methods might be off limits today, or at least need changes, whereas in 1966-1969 it was likely more acceptable.

I think on the one hand Kirk did enjoy his women. But as Christopher noted in general, the mission, and the Enterprise came first. He was generally a gentleman. There were a few cases where maybe he could be construed to be taking advantage of a situation, like Drusilla, but even in those cases he never seemed to wield his power like a club. He generally seemed to be caring and a gentleman. How his evil half acted in "Then Enemy Within" would be shameful to a whole Kirk. He would never act in that manner under normal circumstances.

I also agree that it was fortunate they never developed a Kirk-Rand romance. When it came to his crew he always seemed to maintain a professional distance. He also seemed to prefer a very feminine, and a strong woman at the same time. I think that's partly why he liked Shahna, on the one hand she was very feminine, but she could also kick his ass at the same time.

When it came to Lara in 'The Jihad' I too didn't seem to get the feel that Kirk was really all that interested. Of course they had a dangerous mission and that had to come first. But judging from his past trysts I suspect she may have been just a bit too forward for him. He liked beautiful, strong women. But I think she was just a step too far for him. She was too dominating. I don't think he really wanted to be an alpha male or anything but he didn't want to be dominated either. I think he'd prefer an equal partner.

As an episode I always enjoyed "The Jihad". Somehow they managed to fit a lot action in a 22-23 minute episode. But I didn't feel overwhelmed by all that was going on. I would probably rank it in my top 5 animated episodes.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

I think she would have need to show more gumption or something to make her worthy of Kirk's love. Making coffee under difficult circumstances doesn't cut it for me.

I might add her bringing Kirk his salad and insisting he eat it now, except with McCoy there to back her up, it's not quite as "standing up to the boss" as it could have been.

Unfortunately, there was Drusilla in "Bread and Circuses." The episode may have tried to make it look like he was "pressured" into sleeping with her, but the fact was, he had the power to say no while Drusilla, as a slave, did not. It's TOS's lowest ebb where sexuality is concerned.

Could they not have mutually agreed to pretend something had happened that didn't?

 

[Christopher]

When it came to Lara in 'The Jihad' I too didn't seem to get the feel that Kirk was really all that interested.

You have to consider it in context, though. TAS may not have been the "kids' show" that many people assume, but it did tone down the sex and violence to be appropriate for Saturday mornings. So we're grading on a curve here. Kirk's mild flirtation with Lara is the most interest he shows in any woman in the entirety of TAS (discounting when he was under the influence of the Taurean women in "The Lorelei Signal"), so to me, that suggests that he was definitely attracted.

Of course they had a dangerous mission and that had to come first. But judging from his past trysts I suspect she may have been just a bit too forward for him. He liked beautiful, strong women. But I think she was just a step too far for him. She was too dominating. I don't think he really wanted to be an alpha male or anything but he didn't want to be dominated either. I think he'd prefer an equal partner.

I don't agree at all. In TOS, if anything, it was more common for women to show aggressive interest in Kirk than the reverse. He was more often the pursued than the pursuer. Eve, Helen, Sylvia, Elaan, Deela, Marta, etc. -- it was common for the woman to be the one chasing him, and he seemed fine with it in many cases.

Could they not have mutually agreed to pretend something had happened that didn't?

I'd certainly like to pretend that nothing actually happened, but the real-world intent of the scriptwriters was obviously that he did sleep with her. As usual, the grossest sexism in TOS tends to be in the episodes credited to Roddenberry, which belies his one-time image as a champion of feminism.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

I freely admit that I haven't read the entire thread, but has anybody brought up the fact that, in 1974, the overwhelming majority of the audience almost certainly had no idea what a jihad is, or even how to pronounce the word?

Theocratic terrorists have of course made the word all too familiar, but not four decades ago.

And thank you, Mr. Bennett; it had quite honestly never even occurred to me that Drusilla in BC was the low-point of the entire ST franchise where sexuality and sexism were concerned, but you are indeed quite right. I'd never really given the episode (much less that particular subplot) that much thought.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Good point. Why did they call it that, and not "The Crusade"? My guess is because foreign word = alien undertones. It doesn't have the same mystique it once did now that it pops up all the time in the news these days.

 

[Damian]

You have to consider it in context, though. TAS may not have been the "kids' show" that many people assume, but it did tone down the sex and violence to be appropriate for Saturday mornings. So we're grading on a curve here. Kirk's mild flirtation with Lara is the most interest he shows in any woman in the entirety of TAS (discounting when he was under the influence of the Taurean women in "The Lorelei Signal"), so to me, that suggests that he was definitely attracted.

I suppose just comparing it among other animated episodes. I was sort of taking Star Trek as a whole, I guess not fair in context. I just took some of his hesitation to be sort of "your a nice girl but..." sort of thing.

I don't agree at all. In TOS, if anything, it was more common for women to show aggressive interest in Kirk than the reverse. He was more often the pursued than the pursuer. Eve, Helen, Sylvia, Elaan, Deela, Marta, etc. -- it was common for the woman to be the one chasing him, and he seemed fine with it in many cases.

Yeah, but that's sort of different. I don't think he minded women being after him, I wouldn't mind that myself in fact . But that's a bit different then being dominated by someone else. Helen for instance, showed what I thought was borderline aggressive interest, I considered it more flirtatious, but she wasn't dominating. Deela is dominating in the sense that she wants Kirk, but at the same time she becomes disappointed when Kirk acts docile. I don't think she wanted to be dominating in that case. And in some cases, like Sylvia and Marta, he was simply using them because of some danger to himself, the mission or his crew. These are not women he would probably have pursued on his own.

There's different levels, and room for interpretation. It just seemed to me that Lara was definitely the most aggressive of the bunch and my interpretation was that he wasn't all that interested in a romantic relationship, or tryst with her. But that was my personal feeling. Others obviously feel differently about it.

 

[Damian]

Good point. Why did they call it that, and not "The Crusade"? My guess is because foreign word = alien undertones. It doesn't have the same mystique it once did now that it pops up all the time in the news these days.

That would be my guess, and the word "Crusade" has a bit of a religious feeling to it, something Star Trek largely avoided back then. Jihad was a less familiar word at that time. I imagine it had a more exotic feel, or mystique as you noted. Oooh, Jihad, that sounds different.

Nowadays of course the word Jihad has much larger consequences and significance, and I doubt it would be used if this episode were written today. They'd probably use something like The Quest or something like that.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Instead of the Vedala rounding up our fearless gang of misfits, we'd have the obligatory "meet somebody in a bar and recruit them for our mission" scene.

 

[Shawnster]

Could they not have mutually agreed to pretend something had happened that didn't?

I'd certainly like to pretend that nothing actually happened, but the real-world intent of the scriptwriters was obviously that he did sleep with her. As usual, the grossest sexism in TOS tends to be in the episodes credited to Roddenberry, which belies his one-time image as a champion of feminism.

Not to mention the high probability of hidden cameras or eavesdropping devices in the quarters. Kinda pointless to pretend when you suspect (perhaps correctly) you were spied upon all night. At the very least, Drusilla would have reported back to her boss and the penalty for lying might have been most severe.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

So in effect, he was saving her life by acquiescing?

 

[Damian]

And I'm sure he hated every minute of it

 

[Christopher]

I freely admit that I haven't read the entire thread, but has anybody brought up the fact that, in 1974, the overwhelming majority of the audience almost certainly had no idea what a jihad is, or even how to pronounce the word?

Theocratic terrorists have of course made the word all too familiar, but not four decades ago.

Well, of course the term has been in use for 14 centuries, and the Wahhabist movement that's the foundation of modern militant fundamentalist factions like al-Qaeda has been around since the 18th century. Many of its struggles against Western colonialism in the 19th and 20th centuries were characterized as jihad, such as the Mahdi's jihad against British and Egyptian imperialism in the Sudan in 1881. I'm sure the Crusaders became familiar with the term centuries earlier when Muslims fought back against their invasions.

Still, I did a Google Ngram search, and the pre-1973 English-language usages I find do seem to be limited to scholarly works and translations, and maybe a few works connected to African-American political activism. So it probably wasn't a term in everyday use, maybe something people had come across in history or sociology class. As mentioned above, using a non-English term would've given it a more exotic, "alien" feel, as well as avoiding the censors' discomfort with religious themes. Of course jihad is every bit as religious a term as "crusade," but the relative unfamiliarity would've softened that.

Anyway, it's good to expose your audience to terms they don't already know. Smart fiction challenges its audience. And Filmation always tried to make its shows educational. (I learned a lot of vocabulary from Alan Dean Foster's TAS adaptations, but that's because I was a grade schooler reading books written at an adult reading level.)

Yeah, but that's sort of different. I don't think he minded women being after him, I wouldn't mind that myself in fact . But that's a bit different then being dominated by someone else.

But that's just what I'm saying -- I don't understand your conceptual leap from "assertive" to "dominating." Lara didn't strike me as all that much more forward than the other women who chased Kirk. I certainly didn't find her assertiveness off-putting, and I don't think any well-adjusted, emotionally secure man would. (And some of us find strong, commanding women quite alluring. I think Kirk would prefer a mate who was his equal in all respects.)