Did the 24th century shows get too insulting/condescending about TOS?

[JonnyQuest037]

I'm confused. Are we listing all references to TOS or dialog that specifically mentions 23rd Century?

Nope. At least, the thread wasn't started with that intention.

 

[Jayson1]

Picard had a right to speak to Spock but with the respect a man of his accomplishments and demeanor is due

And if Picard considered Spock a threat to Federation security then he should have forced him home.
That was Picard's duty.
I know Star Trek wasn't that kind of show where they would resort to lethal force for someone doing what Spock was doing. Certainly Picard wasn't the guy for that sort of mission. Maybe Archer...



Yes I agree that Picard said Spock did a bad bad thing but it sounded like he didn't fill in the right forms or beg Starfleet's permission in triplicate. Spock dismissed Picard's concerns by saying "I am here on a personal mission of peace" indicating that he did not represent Starfleet - "This is no concern of Starfleet:". Not I am a representative of Starfleet/Federation and I don't care. He said he was only representing himself no matter what Starfleet thought.

Perrin told Picard that Spock had wound up his affairs. Which meant to me he was no longer a Starfleet/Federation Ambassador. Or was Perrin lying ? If someone winds up their affairs to me that means to me they are not continuing on on their current position.

I'm assuming that Spock didn't have any secret or vital information or otherwise Data would have knocked him over the head, dragged him back to the Federation and locked him up in a Federation prison if he dared going on a "personal mission of peace" again.
The big danger of Spock on Romulus was his ability as a scientist. Picard really needed to ascertain whether Spock was going to use his talents to help Romulus on a technological level. Once he learnt that Spock was on some pathetic mission of peace Picard was happy to leave him to his own devices.

What's kind of funny is Picard doesn't even really do anything to explore if Spock has compromised Federation security or anything. He literally takes him at his word and seems to leave it at that. I guess it's good to be a legend.

Jason

 

[Nerys Myk]

Didn't Picard say he was there? It would be odd not to be able to tell that Michael Burnham is a woman. Perhaps he needed some Retinax 5?

He crashed the wedding with some buddies hoping to pick up some bridesmaids. He was tossed out before the vows.

 

[Commishsleer]

What's kind of funny is Picard doesn't even really do anything to explore if Spock has compromised Federation security or anything. He literally takes him at his word and seems to leave it at that. I guess it's good to be a legend.

Jason

Didn't they meld in the end?
Perhaps Picard was more cunning than you think.

He crashed the wedding with some buddies hoping to pick up some bridesmaids. He was tossed out before the vows.

Was that some nursing home wedding? Michael would have had to be at least 90. Perhaps Picard ran away himself after seeing the bridesmaids.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Nope. At least, the thread wasn't started with that intention.

Introducing something without the proper foundation? I began with references to Kirk and his crew, and decided to see what other 23rd century occurrences are mentioned and how.

"Hundred years ago" from the 24th century (so, the 23rd)
The Vengeance Factor - Gatherers hadn't yet split off from Marouk's culture - violent clan warfare - only the Gatherers eventually remained that way - others overcame (2366-100=2266)
Equilibrium - Jadzia has a vision of members of the Trill Symbiosis commission, wearing uniforms from over a hundred years ago (2371-100+=2271, at least)
Broken Link - Klingons relinquished control of the Archanis IV a hundred years ago. (2372-100=2272)
The Omega Directive - Omega particle first synthesized over a hundred years ago by Ketteract (portrayed in the TOS novel Cloak) (2374-100+=2274, at least)
Think Tank - Bevvox founds the think tank over a hundred years ago (in the Delta Quadrant, though, although Bevvox did so after"wandering the galaxy on his own for a few millennia.") (2375-100+=2275+, at least)
Life Line - This exchange between The Doctor and Troi -

DOCTOR: You won't even look at my research. From the moment I arrived, you've berated me, treated me like an antique. Well, let me tell you something. Antique or not, I took a huge risk coming here. I had to plead with my Captain, leave my ship without a surgeon.
TROI: Doctor. Imagine that your programme was seriously damaged, and the only person who could repair you was an engineer from, say, a hundred years ago. Would you feel comfortable with that?
DOCTOR: If he were skilled, intelligent, creative.
TROI: Honestly, Doctor? A hundred years ago?
DOCTOR: Well, I suppose it would give me pause.

Though that says more about tech advancement than personal opinions.
Muse - a theater on Kelis' planet used to be a temple for sacrificing persons on (2376-100=2276) (Delta Quadrant)
Prophecy - Kohlar's grandfather was part of a Klingon sect looking for the Kuvagh'magh (2377-100=2277)

KOHLAR: More than a hundred years ago, my great-grandfather was part of a sect which believed the Empire had lost its way. They discovered a sacred text. It told them to embark on a journey to a distant region of the galaxy.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Introducing something without the proper foundation? I began with references to Kirk and his crew, and decided to see what other 23rd century occurrences are mentioned and how.

I included "the proper foundation." The topic of the thread is about Kirk and his crew, not about the 23rd century in general. Introducing random and irrelevant references to the 23rd century into the mix just confuses the issue.

If you brought up a reference to Kirk or his crew that I overlooked, that would be relevant. But any random mention of the 23rd century? No.

 

[The Wormhole]

Didn't Picard say he was there?

Picard was too distracted grinning at Sarek.

 

[UnknownSample]

I've just remembered another potential TNG dig at TOS. When Picard mentions he attended the wedding of Sarek's son but didn't mention Spock by name I read that earlier on in TNG the writers were told not to mention the TOS cast at all in any TNG episodes. That order was rescinded a bit later obviously in later seasons of TNG when they were perhaps a bit more secure..
OK its not much of a dig but seems silly now. And yes maybe it wasn't Spock who was getting married but really who else could it have been. Unless it was another one of Sarek's secret sons who was associated with Starfleet.

Some instances seem patronizing but many don't, in particular that one. When a show goes out of its way to work in continuity references like that, it gets tacky and undermines the sense of reality. Sarek's son's name isn't important there, just the fact that Picard went to a wedding in Sarek's family. Besides, they're bringing back a major character in TOS and making the whole story about him.

 

[UnknownSample]

Absolutely. That was reprehensible. Even Deanna didn't really seem to care much about them and only helped the woman so she'd stop being a nuisance. Picard seemed to think that putting them all in a room with a replicator so they'd have food and water would be enough... like they were a bunch of very inconvenient and not very intelligent stray animals.

One of the strengths of TOS and science fiction in general has been its willingness to criticize the society and times it was living in, and to show how attitudes might change in the future. A message they *weren't* sending was "The 20th century is wonderful".
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The Neutral Zone was a rare case of Next Gen doing this, and actually laying it a lot thicker than TOS ever did. (In TOS it was confined to short asides by Spock.) I think our era deserves a hell of a lot of criticism, so it was all cool and interesting to me, except for Picard thinking it would be alright to let them die.

The crew turned out to have been wrong to some extent, but who doesn't have cliché images of this or that group or era in her/his head? The woman is the only one of the three who seems really stable. The rich guy was a loose cannon who brought it all on himself.

 

[Nyotarules]

What do you think? Did you find any of these references to the TOS era insulting or condescending? And if so, do you think it was intentional? Or did this sort of thing never bug you one way or the other? I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts.

People of the present tend to believe they are better than their forebears, in some cases they are right and in some cases they are outright patronising. In Relics La Forge was disrespectful to Scotty, I like how the books (A time to series) deal with the situation when they meet years later, La Forge learns his lesson.
Sisko would fit in the TOS era, my guess is after the Dominion war era (which Janeway missed) Starfleet is less 'righteous' in its attitude.

 

[GNDN18]

Some instances seem patronizing but many don't, in particular that one. When a show goes out of its way to work in continuity references like that, it gets tacky and undermines the sense of reality. Sarek's son's name isn't important there, just the fact that Picard went to a wedding in Sarek's family. Besides, they're bringing back a major character in TOS and making the whole story about him.

Mentioning Spock obliquely was a tease. Picard, channeling Sarek’s violent emotions, said Spock’s name when he expressed Sarek’s profound love for his son, Amanda, and Perrin.

 

[Nyotarules]

Spock was a Federation ambassador who didn't go through Federation channels.

Then Federation security should have dealt with him, not Starfleet. Military officers should not be sent to deal with ambassadors unless one lives in a military dictatorship.

 

[Nyotarules]

Mentioning Spock obliquely was a tease. Picard, channeling Sarek’s violent emotions, said Spock’s name when he expressed Sarek’s profound love for his son, Amanda, and Perrin.

And forgot all about Michael and Sybok.....

 

[BillJ]

I've just remembered another potential TNG dig at TOS. When Picard mentions he attended the wedding of Sarek's son but didn't mention Spock by name I read that earlier on in TNG the writers were told not to mention the TOS cast at all in any TNG episodes. That order was rescinded a bit later obviously in later seasons of TNG when they were perhaps a bit more secure..

They busted that in "The Naked Now", the second aired episode. Kirk and the Enterprise are both mentioned.

 

[GNDN18]

And forgot all about Michael and Sybok.....

Maybe. Maybe not. Sarek was over 200 years old; that’s a lot of souls to encounter in his travels. Not everyone can make the top of the list.

 

[MacLeod]

People of the present tend to believe they are better than their forebears, in some cases they are right and in some cases they are outright patronising. In Relics La Forge was disrespectful to Scotty, I like how the books (A time to series) deal with the situation when they meet years later, La Forge learns his lesson.
Sisko would fit in the TOS era, my guess is after the Dominion war era (which Janeway missed) Starfleet is less 'righteous' in its attitude.

One also has to remember even though Scotty was retired, Scotty out ranked LaForge. One would expect a certain amount of respect is given to retired superior officers.

 

[Tenacity]

even though Scotty was retired, Scotty out ranked LaForge

No, if Scotty was retired he wouldn't outrank anyone, not even a first day commissioned ensign.

Scotty was a civilian.

And forgot all about Michael and Sybok.....

To Sarek Sybok might be a forbidden subject, and by the time of the episode so might Burnham.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

If you brought up a reference to Kirk or his crew that I overlooked, that would be relevant. But any random mention of the 23rd century? No.

My apologies. I could have done a spin-off thread, I guess.

 

[Jayson1]

I have a question. I watched "Sarek" today from TNG and it made me wonder. Did people get upset that TNG first gave a beloved TOS character alltimzers basically and then killed him off in "Unification?" Wasn't a fan when these things were first aired so I am curious what the response was back then.

Jason

 

[The Old Mixer]

I'm sure that some were upset (some always are), but "Sarek" was generally a strong episode, and the first TNG story to center on a guest from TOS.