Did the 24th century shows get too insulting/condescending about TOS?

[Prax]

I don't see any of these as condescending or insulting, and therefore cannot vote.

FWIW, The kinda stuff that(U.S.) Soldiers could get away with in the 90's would never fly today. This statement would probably find truth in many aspects of life. It's a generational thing. Kate Mulgrew used to smoke on set sitting in her captain's chair. Do you think that's allowed on the disco set?

 

[suarezguy]

I think it's a good that the 24th century characters aren't, as some fans may be, particularly reverent of the 23rd century, can think Kirk was pretty great without being The Greatest, even a legend without being sacrosanct. Especially when some of the 24th century characters are pretty great and legendary and/or have more dutiful personalities themselves. I don't think we're supposed to regard the greater dutifulness, characters more-sticking-to-the-rules, as necessarily better but it seems pretty uncontroversial that the original crew was a lot less deferential to the Prime Directive and it would be very weird if later crews didn't notice that.

I'm not sure how Picard, who was still respectful to Spock, could have responded to the situation more tactfully, less dramatically expressed that he was engaging in unauthorized diplomacy. And I really don't get how Scotty in "Relics" was that different from his self-mocking in TSfS, it's just as easy to interpret his later comment as also comical exaggeration and the earlier one as maybe not just exaggeration.

The "Crossover" plot concept and explanation is pretty directly challenging Kirk and his intervention, DS9 was fairly iconoclastic to its predecessors and concepts in general.

 

[suarezguy]

I thought "Unification II" worked really well in acknowledging that the styles of original cast Trek and TNG were pretty different without presenting one as better and the other as worse.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Kate Mulgrew used to smoke on set sitting in her captain's chair. Do you think that's allowed on the disco set?

*cut to Jason Issacs bitterly puffing on an e-cigarette in the Disco captain's chair*

 

[JirinPanthosa]

No.

None of these examples are at all insulting to TOS. They're in-jokes. Just because Scotty was a bit of a magician doesn't mean he wasn't a brilliant engineer. If I were a temporal agent, I think I'd hate Kirk nearly as much as Janeway. All of those same episodes you mention were deferential to the legend of TOS, Trials and Tribbleations ended with Sisko breaking the rules just to get to meet Kirk. Just because they joked about some of its foibles doesn't mean mean they aren't being respectful. It's no different than when Worf said "We could do anything" and O'Brien responded "Except keep the holodecks working".

Would you have rather every TOS reference have the characters fawning over the TOS characters like fanboys?

 

[Prax]

*cut to Jason Issacs bitterly puffing on an e-cigarette in the Disco captain's chair*

That's hilarious

 

[The Wormhole]

*cut to Jason Issacs bitterly puffing on an e-cigarette in the Disco captain's chair*

I can't stand vaping. Just putting that out there.

 

[Commishsleer]

It was his assignment, given to him by an admiral. Picard wasn't there doing his own thing, he was officially representing Starfleet and the Federation. Spock, by contrast, had "gone rogue".

Yes and once he was assured that Spock hadn't gone rogue and was not selling Federation secrets to the Romulans whatever his business was done.
That includes his business of lecturing an elder statesman on how he should be living his life. Its not that Picard just questioned Spock it was his holier than thou attitude. Yeh we in the 24th century are much better than you and your 23rd century cowboys, prime-directive breakers. Data was cool though.

I've just remembered another potential TNG dig at TOS. When Picard mentions he attended the wedding of Sarek's son but didn't mention Spock by name I read that earlier on in TNG the writers were told not to mention the TOS cast at all in any TNG episodes. That order was rescinded a bit later obviously in later seasons of TNG when they were perhaps a bit more secure..
OK its not much of a dig but seems silly now. And yes maybe it wasn't Spock who was getting married but really who else could it have been. Unless it was another one of Sarek's secret sons who was associated with Starfleet.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Yes and once he was assured that Spock hadn't gone rogue

But Spock had gone rogue. Going rogue is not working through the proper channels. That's exactly what Spock was doing. Picard was carrying out his assignment.

 

[Commishsleer]

But Spock had gone rogue. Going rogue is not working through the proper channels. That's exactly what Spock was doing. Picard was carrying out his assignment.

Was he working for Starfleet anymore?
Does he have to answer to them for the rest of his life? I'm going on holiday here. I'm at a scientific conference there, I'm dating a Deltan, etc.
Presumably hes been out of Starfleet for 80 years by then.

I'm not saying Picard did the wrong thing investigating Spock. He follows commands as he should because he's currently in Starfleet as opposed to Spock. Its just Picard's lecturing I'm opposed to.
Seriously though he wasn't just going to say well Spock I can see you're intentions are good and hope you succeed. Lets go Data and leave Spock to it. It wouldn't have made Picard's trip seem like the waste of time it was without Picard mentioning his 24th century superior morality.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Spock was a Federation ambassador who didn't go through Federation channels.

You are in a position to compromise the security of the Federation.

If you wish to undertake a mission with obvious repercussions for the Federation then you should discuss it with the Federation. I'm here as their representative.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I've just remembered another potential TNG dig at TOS. When Picard mentions he attended the wedding of Sarek's son but didn't mention Spock by name I read that earlier on in TNG the writers were told not to mention the TOS cast at all in any TNG episodes. That order was rescinded a bit later obviously in later seasons of TNG when they were perhaps a bit more secure.

Tough for me to see that as any kind of dig. "His son" was the natural way to refer to Spock when Sarek was the main subject of the conversation.

And TNG broke that "no mentioning TOS characters" rule pretty quickly by mentioning Kirk in passing in their second episode, "The Naked Now."

 

[Prax]

Picard is a stiff. That's why we love him.

 

[Jayson1]

Was he working for Starfleet anymore?
Does he have to answer to them for the rest of his life? I'm going on holiday here. I'm at a scientific conference there, I'm dating a Deltan, etc.
Presumably hes been out of Starfleet for 80 years by then.

I'm not saying Picard did the wrong thing investigating Spock. He follows commands as he should because he's currently in Starfleet as opposed to Spock. Its just Picard's lecturing I'm opposed to.
Seriously though he wasn't just going to say well Spock I can see you're intentions are good and hope you succeed. Lets go Data and leave Spock to it. It wouldn't have made Picard's trip seem like the waste of time it was without Picard mentioning his 24th century superior morality.

Even if Spock resigned as being a Ambassador he is still a Federation citizen. You can't just have regular citizens going to a enemy planet and basically open up peace negotions on behalf of everyone else. It would be like if Hillary Clinton today decided to head off on her own to try and bring peace in the Middle East all by herself and without telling anyone. Not to mention Spock must have vital info and whether he would tell them on his own doesn't stop the Romulans from maybe torturing him for the info or getting it through other means. He can also be used for blackmail.

Jason

 

[Commishsleer]

Spock was a Federation ambassador who didn't go through Federation channels.

Perrin said that Spock had finished up his affairs which I assume meant he was no longer a Federation Ambassador although the title might carry on.
Anyway when Picard said Spock didn't follow the "correct protocols", Spock said it was none of his concern and called him on his bulls^&*

Tough for me to see that as any kind of dig. "His son" was the natural way to refer to Spock when Sarek was the main subject of the conversation.

And TNG broke that "no mentioning TOS characters" rule pretty quickly by mentioning Kirk in passing in their second episode, "The Naked Now."

I'm not sure how much of this not mentioning TOS characters was true. I vaguely remember someone (on this very site or perhaps another forum) saying Berman (or someone else) wen tinto the writers room and raging don't mention any TOS characters. Maybe it didn't happen.

Even if Spock resigned as being a Ambassador he is still a Federation citizen. You can't just have regular citizens going to a enemy planet and basically open up peace negotions on behalf of everyone else. It would be like if Hillary Clinton today decided to head off on her own to try and bring peace in the Middle East all by herself and without telling anyone. Not to mention Spock must have vital info and whether he would tell them on his own doesn't stop the Romulans from maybe torturing him for the info or getting it through other means. He can also be used for blackmail.

Jason

I don't think Spock was going in to negotiate peace. He was going in to help the underground movement on no official basis. Thats why he didn't ask everyone's permission or advice.

It wasn't as if Spock had any vital information that might endanger the Federation like say the formula for Red Matter. At this stage he was just a retired ambassador and presumably free to do whatever he liked. In fact he said that. And if he did have some vital information then surely it was Picards duty to bring him back. If Picard had an issue with him other than his "cowboy diplomacy" thinking he might be used as blackmail or tortured for info - then it was Picard's duty to either bring Spock back, disable him or send in a task force after Spock if he didn't think he could manage it.

Picard is a stiff. That's why we love him.

Well thats true too.

 

[Spot261]

Picard is a stiff. That's why we love him.

Most of the time!

 

[Jayson1]

Just getting involved in the underground movement though can be seen as being a political act by the Romulans. A former Starfleet officer.Ambassador and basically a legend is working with a group of people who are basically the enemy of the state. That would be problem for the Federation no matter what other things happened. Even if Spock gave up his citizenship status the Romulans wouldn't believe it. Why he might, by law be justified I don't think the Federation would just sit back and not do anything because of the security concerns involved. As for info Spock knows I am guessing he might know alot. Like inside info on various Polticians, security codes,locations of Federation outposts, types of weapons the Federation has etc.

Jason

 

[Commishsleer]

If Spock knew secrets then Picard should have bought him back.
Why didn't he if Spock was that much of a security risk to the Federation?

Sela didn't seemed to be that much interested in Spock's secrets anyway.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Anyway when Picard said Spock didn't follow the "correct protocols", Spock said it was none of his concern and called him on his bulls^&*

Spock said that it was none of Starfleet's concern. Starfleet clearly felt otherwise.

It wasn't as if Spock had any vital information that might endanger the Federation like say the formula for Red Matter. At this stage he was just a retired ambassador and presumably free to do whatever he liked. In fact he said that.

Starfleet clearly felt otherwise.

And if he did have some vital information then surely it was Picards duty to bring him back. If Picard had an issue with him other than his "cowboy diplomacy" thinking he might be used as blackmail or tortured for info - then it was Picard's duty to either bring Spock back, disable him or send in a task force after Spock if he didn't think he could manage it.

Now this is just getting silly. So it was wrong for Picard to lecture Spock, but Picard should have resorted to force rather than talk to Spock? As if he had such an option...he and one other officer managed to sneak onto the Romulan homeworld.

The bottom line, though, is that Picard was acting as Starfleet and the Federation's representative the entire time. It wasn't Picard overstepping his duty and choosing to lecture Spock. It was Picard doing his duty.

 

[Jayson1]

If Spock knew secrets then Picard should have bought him back.
Why didn't he if Spock was that much of a security risk to the Federation?

Sela didn't seemed to be that much interested in Spock's secrets anyway.

Bad writing. Which I mostly blame on the fact that you only have about 42 minutes to tell your story and thus you don't always get to explore all the details that would factor into a mission like this.

Jason