Spoilers Did Picard finally ''right the ship'' with Picard season 3?

[HotRod]

I have to believe, given the name-dropping of legacy characters that was going-on and how it kinda fits the tone of how Easter eggs were included in season 3, Matalas was responsible for this:

For I must not be a true believer in The Matalas. He has not granted me the blessed sight of his vision. Oh, Lord Terry, what must I do to honour thee?

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Now comes DISCO, where you have the only bridge leads being the captain and XO, and everyone else has a name and dialogue. But they are not really given much, despite them already having a big leg up on previous shows. I think it's not unreasonable to expect a little more knowledge or depth to named characters, particularly when they appear in virtually EVERY episode. If you aren't going to bother developing them, why even bother giving them names and dialogue?

It's really not that different to TOS though... Over the course of three seasons Sulu and Uhura get very little to do... Chekov similar. TOS had three leads, the closest to a fourth being Scott.

 

[fireproof78]

It's really not that different to TOS though... Over the course of three seasons Sulu and Uhura get very little to do... Chekov similar. TOS had three leads, the closest to a fourth being Scott.

That's more how I approach Discovery and it has been helpful to recognize it as closer to TOS, with the bulk of the character and problem solving focused on the mains, and the bridge crew serving in ancillary roles, at most.

 

[HotRod]

That's more how I approach Discovery and it has been helpful to recognize it as closer to TOS, with the bulk of the character and problem solving focused on the mains, and the bridge crew serving in ancillary roles, at most.

As mentioned above, Uhura didn't even have a damn first name for over 40 years.

 

[Farscape One]

Because they are still people, but they are the people you pass by at work, rather than linger with and get to know. There's a difference with all of that.

But we have lingered with them in a few scenes and know their names. Plus, there were the Paramount + press releases talking about 'getting to know Detmer' and the others, mentioned above.

It just feels contradictory to go to all that trouble to say 'this is our bridge crew, and let's get to know them' and then they just get basically relegated to glorified extras.

For a show that touts itself as being very inclusive (and it really is overall), this gives the appearance of exclusion of those characters.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

For a show that touts itself as being very inclusive (and it really is overall), this gives the appearance of exclusion of those characters.

It doesn't though. It just makes it the same as any other show which has both lead and ancillary characters.

 

[fireproof78]

But we have lingered with them in a few scenes and know their names. Plus, there were the Paramount + press releases talking about 'getting to know Detmer' and the others, mentioned above.

It just feels contradictory to go to all that trouble to say 'this is our bridge crew, and let's get to know them' and then they just get basically relegated to glorified extras.

For a show that touts itself as being very inclusive (and it really is overall), this gives the appearance of exclusion of those characters.

I get people feeling that way and it does make sense. It's just, I don't know, not as bothersome to me as it is to others. Some characters get the focus and other's don't. I think having names is better than not. But, as I said, I remember Detmer, Bryce, Rhys, Owo (can't spell her name worth a damn) and Ariam from Season 1 on. So they don't bother me because I was already liking those characters.

As always, mileage will vary. And I know I'm weird because I like Commander Giotto, Commodore Wesley (no relation), Tomilson's death makes me cry, and Shras is my favorite Andorian. I don't need full episodes to care about characters.

 

[Farscape One]

It's really not that different to TOS though... Over the course of three seasons Sulu and Uhura get very little to do... Chekov similar. TOS had three leads, the closest to a fourth being Scott.

Okay, that is a very valid point, and I agree. But then we get those 'get to know...' segments by Paramount + and the writers aren't doing anything for those characters. It sends mixed messages.

In this case, I can blame the studio more for the disparity. But once those presses happened, the writers could have just added a few more scenes. Doesn't even have to be fancy flying or problrm solving.

 

[Farscape One]

I get people feeling that way and it does make sense. It's just, I don't know, not as bothersome to me as it is to others. Some characters get the focus and other's don't. I think having names is better than not. But, as I said, I remember Detmer, Bryce, Rhys, Owo (can't spell her name worth a damn) and Ariam from Season 1 on. So they don't bother me because I was already liking those characters.

As always, mileage will vary. And I know I'm weird because I like Commander Giotto, Commodore Wesley (no relation), Tomilson's death makes me cry, and Shras is my favorite Andorian. I don't need full episodes to care about characters.

Owosekun.

 

[fireproof78]

Okay, that is a very valid point, and I agree. But then we get those 'get to know...' segments by Paramount + and the writers aren't doing anything for those characters. It sends mixed messages.

In this case, I can blame the studio more for the disparity. But once those presses happened, the writers could have just added a few more scenes. Doesn't even have to be fancy flying or problrm solving.

Unless the writers were not consulted on the presser.

Also, I would imagine that there are many "Get to know you" style segments, even with Season 3 and the Titan's bridge crew. How much did we really learn?

Owosekun.

Thank you. Os are my nemesis in spelling.

 

[Farscape One]

Thank you. Os are my nemesis in spelling.

You're welcome.

O is your kryptonite, huh?

O....

kay.

 

[cal888]

I have to believe, given the name-dropping of legacy characters that was going-on and how it kinda fits the tone of how Easter eggs were included in season 3, Matalas was responsible for this:

This would have been one of the first things filmed, when Matalas did have the highest amount of influence in the season. Plus this reflects the hiring of Dave Blass.

He was not just a "helper." Someone who is simply a helper does not get the majority of their story ideas in the season. If he left after the first 2 season 2 episodes were written how was he developing season 3 without a writer's room since the season 3 writers were still working on season 2? The writers have talked about how collaborative the writing for season 3 was. Also from his comments on working on the production side fo things when season 2 started filming implies that he left halfway through the filming of the season to prepare for season 3 filming.

&

What I think - people hate season 2, like season 3, and want Terry to helm a Legacy show so are trying really hard to minimize his involvement with season 2 despite his own statements.

Bryan Fuller got many of his ideas into DISCOVERY season 1. We likely won't get the full story about what happened with PICARD season 2 for years. But what has slipped out... that executive interference prevented Laris from traveling back in time, that the season changed course mid-production when executive leadership at Paramount+ changed, Terry saying by the time the season got to its final portion he was basically watching it as a fan... Season 2 likely went through multiple fluid permutations. Some from the first draft outline must have made it through, others would be completely unrecognizable.

So I see it a nuanced situation with many cooks in the kitchen. I can point to four seasons of 12 MONKEYS showing why Terry Matalas can do a good job as showrunner. Akiva Goldsman has a much more variable track record.

A while back, Matalas discussed the independent film THE TV SET on Twitter, saying such to the effect that it's not a comedy, but a horror film. In the US you can stream it for free with ads on YouTube. Has David Duchovney and Sigorney Weaver. Maybe he identified with PICARD season 2 (or his stint on MACGYVER)?

Spoiler: Trailer for THE TV SET

Spoiler: The film on YouTube

 

[fireproof78]

Matalas doesn't get carte blanche.

 

[Sci]

Think of it like this.

You watch TNG, and all the leads are bridge crew except Beverly, for obvious reasons. Later after Wesley is gone, it's still most of the bridge crew, or rather most of the primary manned posts.

VOYAGER, same thing... each main post is a lead character. (Helm, ops, tactical, captain, XO.) Same with ENTERPRISE.

On those shows, any time those leads were elsewhere and someone else was manning their post, virtually every instance was with an extra with no name. Or any dialogue.

Now comes DISCO, where you have the only bridge leads being the captain and XO, and everyone else has a name and dialogue. But they are not really given much, despite them already having a big leg up on previous shows.

Right, because DIS is not a show about the bridge crew.

It's really that simple. TNG, VOY, and ENT were about the bridge crew; DIS is not. DIS is about a combination of some bridge crew and some lower deckers and some civilians.

Expecting that DIS ought to be about the bridge crew because of what other ST shows did is just creatively arbitrary. Like, the fact that Dragnet was about two police detective partners doesn't mean Law & Order was breaking some rule by being about a combination of police detectives and prosecutors. The fact that E.R. was about hospital emergency room personnel does not mean House, M.D. broke some rule by focusing on diagnosticians.

I think it's not unreasonable to expect a little more knowledge or depth to named characters, particularly when they appear in virtually EVERY episode. If you aren't going to bother developing them, why even bother giving them names and dialogue?

Expecting Detmer and Owosekun to get development is like expecting Margaret, Bonnie, Carol, or Ginger to be developed on The West Wing. They're day players; the show is fundamentally not about them.

My original point was that characters like Detmer and Owo wouldn't be afterthoughts if Discovery's writing wasn't so dumb.

Plenty of well-written shows feature ancillary characters portrayed by day players who do not get much development. That doesn't make them badly-written shows. The West Wing was not a badly-written show just because we never learned much about Margaret.

 

[Racefuel]

It seems like the same tired talking point that if every single character that we see on screen with a name doesn't get a comprehensive and complete backstory its "lazy and stupid writing" filled with plot holes.

Its a tired, braindead criticism that has no connection to reality

 

[Farscape One]

It seems like the same tired talking point that if every single character that we see on screen with a name doesn't get a comprehensive and complete backstory its "lazy and stupid writing" filled with plot holes.

Its a tired, braindead criticism that has no connection to reality

I never said it was lazy, stupid, or braindead. I was saying it feels like mixed messages when you have Detmer and co. getting names and some dialogue along with 'get to know...' specials and there not being much done with them afterward.

If you're not going to give us a meal, don't tease us with crumbs.

Especially when you can just add a scene or two here and there. No need to spend a full episode.

 

[Racefuel]

I wasn't meaning you in particular, just an overall statement of a trend.

 

[fireproof78]

It seems like the same tired talking point that if every single character that we see on screen with a name doesn't get a comprehensive and complete backstory its "lazy and stupid writing" filled with plot holes.

Its a tired, braindead criticism that has no connection to reality

Ultimately, it goes back to expectations, and what Trek has done in the past vs. what was done with current shows.

I don't think it's always tired or braindead, any more than Discovery is lazy for not developing the characters because they are on the bridge. Again, it's managing expectations.

 

[El Maestro]

Bryan Fuller got many of his ideas into DISCOVERY season 1. We likely won't get the full story about what happened with PICARD season 2 for years. But what has slipped out... that executive interference prevented Laris from traveling back in time, that the season changed course mid-production when executive leadership at Paramount+ changed, Terry saying by the time the season got to its final portion he was basically watching it as a fan... Season 2 likely went through multiple fluid permutations. Some from the first draft outline must have made it through, others would be completely unrecognizable.

I have no problem buying that there was weirdness behind the scenes in S2. I think people over-estimate S2s badness...it actually started pretty damn good if I remember...and then it kind of meandered and fizzled. I don't regret watching it, and can see why people say it isn't that great, but it's not as dire as some make it out to be.

 

[El Maestro]

It seems like the same tired talking point that if every single character that we see on screen with a name doesn't get a comprehensive and complete backstory its "lazy and stupid writing" filled with plot holes.

Its a tired, braindead criticism that has no connection to reality

Yeah there are lot of "rules" that fans hold the creators to that seemingly come from nowhere. I like the DSC bridge crew a lot (which is a credit to the actors and writers!) and wish we could see more of them but the fact that we don't doesn't mean the show is fatally flawed.