Did Kirk command the Enterprise for a while after TMP?

[jackoverfull]

TMP should have been set ten years after TOS, but dialog in the film states it's less than three years after TOS' 5-year mission.

Not necessarily, though: it establishes that Kirk has been earthbound for two and half years and the time it took to refit the enterprise, but nothing prevents Kirk from having commanded other ships (or the enterprise) after the five years, just not “out there” (maybe he was always in the safe waters of the core of the federations) or the enterprise having had more captains in the meantime.

TWOK feels as if it's suggesting TMP never happened since those events are never again referenced in successive films or series.

Not really. What would you have them do? Kirk commenting “I like saavik, I hope she isn’t abducted and turned into a machine like our last navigator”?

 

[Pauln6]

Chapel qualified as a doctor in the gap post TAS. It normally takes 7 years to qualify as a junior doctor as opposed to a trainee doctor. You can assume she started her studies in year 5 of TOS, which would be 6 years post TOS to qualify.

You could also assume that her existing scientific degree would exempt her from from some academic modules but unlikely she could achieve qualification to function without supervision in less than 4 years.

I think Kirk helping to save Earth probably earned him the right to his new mission. It would have been whatever Decker's mission was going to be.

 

[Timo]

TMP should have been set ten years after TOS, but dialog in the film states it's less than three years after TOS' 5-year mission.

...At a minimum. It certainly doesn't state anything else. And when it does mention, indirectly, that TOS happened, it singles out those five years as a unique event in world history, rather than just a five-year stretch of the hero careers or lives: it seems that nobody else on Earth at that time has done anything even remotely comparable, so Kirk can roll up his CV and clobber all competition to submission with it.

TOS is in the past of the heroes, and this bit of information suffices. It may be in a relatively distant past, too, so that there's lots of nostalgia involved, lots of rejoicing at meeting again at long last, and lots of rustiness when it comes to Kirk's space skills. Plus lots of grey on everybody's head.

But if we go by time references in TWOK then it takes place about 10-12 years after TMP.

Well, neither of the movies actually contains such references. TWoK refuses to acknowledge TMP, and TMP just sort of floats there.

That's plenty of time for at least one more voyage under Kirk.

Or sixteen. But the point of TWoK is that Kirk isn't voyaging any longer, and any mission between TMP and TWoK would detract from that - and the more, the worse.

GEN implies Kirk has commanded an Enterprise (1701 and 1701A) for thirty years

Again, absolutely not. We hear a reporter speak of starships named Enterprise, from the angle that Kirk has had a stint at commanding each of those in the past 30 years. It's difficult to see how one could read "Kirk has commanded for thirty years" into what is actually being said there, since, well, it is not said.

"The Menagerie" established it wasn't impossible for someone to command the same ship for several years given Spock states he served with Pike for nine years.

But that would assume that Pike commanded the same ship for nine years, which again is not stated in that episode. All we learn there is that Pike was the ship's CO at the two times specified - just like Kirk has been in command of the Enterprise for more than one time.

The first time we learn that Pike (and thus by association Spock) might have been associated with the ship for a great length of time comes in DSC "Brother" where we see in writing that Pike got the command in 2250, and immediately before that was already the ship's XO under Captain April. So yes, it's possible for an officer to get seriously stuck with a single command. It's just that this evidence first surfaces in DSC, where it's included exactly because it has been a fandom urban legend for so long. Until then, the urban legend had little basis in onscreen utterances or writer intent or things of that nature...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

Chapel qualified as a doctor in the gap post TAS. It normally takes 7 years to qualify as a junior doctor as opposed to a trainee doctor. You can assume she started her studies in year 5 of TOS, which would be 6 years post TOS to qualify.

Or then she already was an MD in every practical respect when sneaking herself onboard the Enterprise as a nurse so that she could search for Roger Korby. Heck, perhaps she even had her papers and all, but there were no MD openings aboard that ship. But more probably she had the choice of doing three more months of studies, and joining the expedition, and she chose the latter.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

Not necessarily, though: it establishes that Kirk has been earthbound for two and half years and the time it took to refit the enterprise, but nothing prevents Kirk from having commanded other ships (or the enterprise) after the five years, just not “out there” (maybe he was always in the safe waters of the core of the federations) or the enterprise having had more captains in the meantime.

Maybe you could fudge it, but he couldn't have been in the captain's chair. The whole point early on was to show how out of it he was where ships/command were concerned. Maybe he could've spent time as a starbase commander if one wants to fudge it.

 

[fireproof78]

Not really. What would you have them do? Kirk commenting “I like saavik, I hope she isn’t abducted and turned into a machine like our last navigator”?

Yeah, I never saw TMP and TWOK as some how excluding each other. One is one adventure, and then a indiscriminate amount of time later passes and TWOK happens. Now, this might just be me, but my assumption was always TMP happened, adventures we didn't see happen, Kirk's promoted, TWOK happens. And, I can't remember, but I had read somewhere that there was the base assumption that Kirk commanded the Enterprise for another 5 years. Since we have no idea the time frame between films (and it's not that important) then that works fine for me.

 

[ChallengerHK]

Yeah, I never saw TMP and TWOK as some how excluding each other. One is one adventure, and then a indiscriminate amount of time later passes and TWOK happens. Now, this might just be me, but my assumption was always TMP happened, adventures we didn't see happen, Kirk's promoted, TWOK happens. And, I can't remember, but I had read somewhere that there was the base assumption that Kirk commanded the Enterprise for another 5 years. Since we have no idea the time frame between films (and it's not that important) then that works fine for me.

For the most part I agree. In my perfect world there would have been no TMP and nothing for TWOK to therefore reference or not reference, but I can work with them both existing as well. There is one logical...I don't want to call it an inconsistency...maybe just something that for me buggers belief. Assuming that TMP is in the same continuity, Kirk finishes his five year assignment, gets booted upstairs, is miserable, moves heaven and earth to get the Enterprise back, apparently takes it out again for some length of time...then lets them boot him upstairs again, making him miserable again. It seems like he would have been smart enough to say "No" after the first time. I think that alone is the main reason on opening night of TWOK I said to myself "Oh, they're assuming that TMP didn't happen."

 

[Timo]

Then again, why should Kirk have any say on whether he gets kicked up the ladder? He's in love with an organization that is Hell on Earth for him, but Heaven, too. It's not particularly strange that he would get mood swings...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ChallengerHK]

Then again, why should Kirk have any say on whether he gets kicked up the ladder? He's in love with an organization that is Hell on Earth for him, but Heaven, too. It's not particularly strange that he would get mood swings...

I wouldn't agree. Star Fleet is a job. He's in love with the Enterprise.

That said, Riker refuses promotion multiple times, and compared to Kirk he's a nobody, so I would think that Kirk could get away with refusing promotions as well.

 

[Timo]

I wouldn't agree. Star Fleet is a job. He's in love with the Enterprise.

It's the in-laws that come with the package that make life difficult for Kirk, though: he can't fly through deep space free as a bird unless he also subjects himself to the chains and cages of the organization.

That said, Riker refuses promotion multiple times, and compared to Kirk he's a nobody, so I would think that Kirk could get away with refusing promotions as well.

Possibly so. OTOH, Kirk might suffer for his fame: NASA didn't let Glenn fly again (until they did).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[fireproof78]

seems like he would have been smart enough to say "No" after the first time. I think that alone is the main reason on opening night of TWOK I said to myself "Oh, they're assuming that TMP didn't happen."

This is purely personal conjecture but Kirk has always struck me as a person of duty. Him saying no to Starfleet over a matter of a promotion strikes me as odd.

 

[Pauln6]

Or then she already was an MD in every practical respect when sneaking herself onboard the Enterprise as a nurse so that she could search for Roger Korby. Heck, perhaps she even had her papers and all, but there were no MD openings aboard that ship. But more probably she had the choice of doing three more months of studies, and joining the expedition, and she chose the latter.

Timo Saloniemi

I don't think one could realistically argue she was already or almost qualified for the whole 5 years, although she might have completed any remaining academic training during that period.

It's clearly silly to suggest she was going to be the ship's CMO if she was a newly qualified junior doctor. Maybe a couple more years experience is all it would take though.

I tend to subscribe to the notion that a bit more than 2.5 years is implied. I think Kirk logged some Star hours on specific local missions before he was promoted and they decided to refit ready for the next deep space tour.

 

[ChallengerHK]

This is purely personal conjecture but Kirk has always struck me as a person of duty. Him saying no to Starfleet over a matter of a promotion strikes me as odd.

I can see your point. Perhaps, having mulled it all over for years, that's why he tells Picard to never accept a promotion, to stay where he can make a difference. I still see Kirk as being smarter than that, though, kind of a "Fool me once" thing.

 

[fireproof78]

I can see your point. Perhaps, having mulled it all over for years, that's why he tells Picard to never accept a promotion, to stay where he can make a difference. I still see Kirk as being smarter than that, though, kind of a "Fool me once" thing.

But, if he sees a need in the fleet he would feel duty bound to support that need.

 

[jackoverfull]

For the most part I agree. In my perfect world there would have been no TMP and nothing for TWOK to therefore reference or not reference, but I can work with them both existing as well. There is one logical...I don't want to call it an inconsistency...maybe just something that for me buggers belief. Assuming that TMP is in the same continuity, Kirk finishes his five year assignment, gets booted upstairs, is miserable, moves heaven and earth to get the Enterprise back, apparently takes it out again for some length of time...then lets them boot him upstairs again, making him miserable again. It seems like he would have been smart enough to say "No" after the first time. I think that alone is the main reason on opening night of TWOK I said to myself "Oh, they're assuming that TMP didn't happen."

Yes, but politics and policies enter in assignments. Commanding a starship is the job of a captain, not of an admiral and eventually someone of a higher rank will make clear that he needs Kirk somewhere else in the organization.

The whole point of demoting Kirk back to captain is that no admiral will be perplexed in seeing a captain captaining, it was a very big and telegraphed gift to Kirk, giving him exactly what he had wanted for years.

Also, we learn in Generations that Kirk leaves Starfleet for a unknown period between the two movies, there might have been a reason for that, perhaps one relates to him not finding a place for himself in the organization.

This time gap and change of situation has of course provided plenty of material for ancillary material such as the novels over the years.

That said, Riker refuses promotion multiple times, and compared to Kirk he's a nobody, so I would think that Kirk could get away with refusing promotions as well.

Yes, and it’s made clear in BoBW that Riker is hurting his career by repeatedly refusing promotions.

And well...After the enterprise is crashed he stays another 8 years on another ship as XO -another Enterprise that he might or might not care too much about- and then doesn’t get to be its captain anyway. I hope the titan was better than the Ares, but he could have been captain a decade earlier if he had wanted to.

 

[ChallengerHK]

But, if he sees a need in the fleet he would feel duty bound to support that need.

And I think he would have, once.

Pre-TMP
Admiralty: Kirk, your experience is invaluable. We need you at Star Fleet Command to help us plan for the unknown.
Kirk (reluctantly): Yes, sir.

Pre-TWOK
Admiralty: Kirk, your experience is invaluable. We need you at Star Fleet Command to help us plan for the unknown.
Kirk: I saw how that worked out. You didn't need me at all and all I did was play office politics. No thanks.

 

[jackoverfull]

Pre-TWOK
Admiralty: Kirk, your experience is invaluable. We need you at Star Fleet Command to help us plan for the unknown.
Kirk: I saw how that worked out. You didn't need me at all and all I did was play office politics. No thanks.

Admiral: “then you are out. Call me when you change your mind”.

Kirk goes back to earth, gets a chalet, ride horses and almost gets married to Antonia, then decides he needs to do something useful for society for his life to have purpose, even if it’s only teaching and doing paperwork, and calls the admiral.

 

[ChallengerHK]

Admiral: “then you are out. Call me when you change your mind”.

Kirk goes back to earth, gets a chalet, ride horses and almost gets married to Antonia, then decides he needs to do something useful for society for his life to have purpose, even if it’s only teaching and doing paperwork, and calls the admiral.

Yet we know that that's not always how they epeople who turn down a promotion. Granted, it's possible that by the time Riker has come along they're running things more like a business and less like a military operation ("We want you to be happy in the operation, Will"), but barring something like that, if they didn't boot Riker, I can't see them booting Kirk.

 

[jackoverfull]

But they did bother Riker. They went as far as telling Picard to convince him to accept the promotion. And again, we’re talking of a meager commander there, not of an high profile famous admiral who’s embarrassing the fleet doing a job way below his station.

 

[ChallengerHK]

But they did bother Riker. They went as far as telling Picard to convince him to accept the promotion. And again, we’re talking of a meager commander there, not of an high profile famous admiral who’s embarrassing the fleet doing a job way below his station.

If I had something I really didn't want to do, and they got my boss to ask me to do it anyway, as long as there's no punishment involved I'd smile and say "I would prefer not to." If they had had Picard tell Riker that his career would be over unless he accepted the promotion, or that he'd be shipped to a supply station on the ass-end of space, then I could see that being a good analogy.