Did Kirk command the Enterprise for a while after TMP?

[Timo]

In GEN, a reporter says to Kirk, "This is the first starship Enterprise in 30 years without James T. Kirk in command. How do you feel about that?" The reporter didn't do their homework because they forgot about Decker and Spock.

I'd rather suspect the fans are forgetting, or ignorant of, half a dozen other people who commanded the Enterprise at one point or another (there's plenty of room for Captains Nowan and Nnevahurd between the first two movies, say).

But the reporter got it right: all the previous versions of the Enterprise in the past 30 years did have JTK in command. And, of course, the E-B ultimately did, too... For all of twenty seconds or so, before he graciously relegated command back to Harriman.

But Decker never got a chance to command the Enterprise on active duty and I'm guessing Spock was never too far from Kirk when the Enterprise was a training vessel. So, even though it's sloppy, I can see why the reporter would make that mistake.

Not a mistake at all, but an angle. Nothing about what she says is incorrect in the slightest. Nobody cares about Decker or Spock or Nnevahurd. The story is about Kirk, who commanded at least two previous Enterprises and, the circumstances of the refit considered, more like three.

After just re-joining Starfleet, I don't think they'd give Spock a command of his own right away... so I'd say Kirk stayed in command of the Enterprise for a little while after TMP.

Or got kicked out of the service when Nogura grew a spine, and crawled back to beg for a desk job, which ultimately meant position as Academy Commandant.

Starfleet can't really be short of capable commanders of starships. There just happened to be a temporary and local shortage at the exact hour of TMP, which Kirk ruthlessly exploited. After Kirk's unscheduled joyride thataway, the next man, woman or BEM would be ready to take over.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Lord Garth]

FWIW, Robert Wise said that when they were making TMP, the understanding was that it took place ten years after the series.

The real problem is Kirk's line saying "five years out there, dealing with unknowns like this" and Decker saying "you haven't logged a single star-hour in two-and-a-half years." 13 years passed in real-time from 1966 to 1979. But Kirk and Decker's lines only account for 7.5. That's 5.5 years unaccounted for. If it weren't so strongly implied that Kirk was talking about the five-year mission from TOS, I'd say Kirk could've been in command of another five-year mission after TOS. And there was a six-month refit or six months of downtime in-between the two missions. That would've neatly filled the gap. But the dialogue in the film suggests against it.

Unless Kirk had a very different type of five-year mission after TOS but before TMP. One that didn't deal with "unknowns like this." Something more similar to TNG where they didn't really do much exploring but just hung around Federation Space most of the time.

 

[Damian]

FWIW, Robert Wise said that when they were making TMP, the understanding was that it took place ten years after the series. Of course, he was just a hired gun in the context of a larger franchise.

Kor

My guess is he was going with real time, that is the number of years between the end of the original series (ignoring the animated series-though that is included with that 5 YM) and when TMP was released.

But it's contradicted in the dialogue. Kirk said he's been at Starfleet Operations for 2 1/2 years and Scott says the ship underwent an 18 month refit.

Now I guess you can argue that the ship was on another extended mission after the 5YM but before the refit, and some early novels from the 1980s hinted at the possibility. But I always got the impression that it was 2 1/2 years after the end of the 5YM. And nowadays that seems to be what most people go with. We know from Voyager that the 5YM ended in 2270, and in general it seems the consensus is TMP took place around 2273 (with late 2272 or very early 2274 being a possibility).

But back when it first came out, I can understand some confusion. Was it real time between the two, that is 10 years, or was it 2 1/2 years based on the dialogue?

But the reporter got it right: all the previous versions of the Enterprise in the past 30 years did have JTK in command. And, of course, the E-B ultimately did, too... For all of twenty seconds or so, before he graciously relegated command back to Harriman.

It's a bit clunky, but I think what they were getting at is Kirk became the captain of the Enterprise either around 2264 or 2265 and the beginning portion of Generations is in 2293 or 2294 I believe. And Kirk was captain of the first two Enterprises at least for significant periods of time, including for the last 7 or 8 years of the Enterprise-A. That makes it about 30 years roughly.

So I just assumed the reporter was making a general statement. I guess the reporter could have added "most of the last 30 years" but it's not a big deal. People tend to generalize and not sweat the details as time passes. AND if you assume Kirk was in command of the Enterprise for another extended mission after TMP before Spock became Captain, then it's just a matter of how long was Spock captain of the Enterprise before TWOK. The novel "The Higher Frontier" has that moment being around the turn of the decade, 2280. It's not canon of course, but if you just use that for argument's sake, then that would mean Kirk was captain of a ship named Enterprise for more than 75% of those years.

 

[Timo]

The real problem is Kirk's line saying "five years out there, dealing with unknowns like this" and Decker saying "you haven't logged a single star-hour in two-and-a-half years." 13 years passed in real-time from 1966 to 1979. But Kirk and Decker's lines only account for 7.5. That's 5.5 years unaccounted for.

But why should they be accounted for? Stuff happened. Perhaps it didn't even involve Kirk logging star hours beyond "single". So it was in all probability uninteresting stuff, and the less we hear about it, the better.

Unless Kirk had a very different type of five-year mission after TOS but before TMP. One that didn't deal with "unknowns like this." Something more similar to TNG where they didn't really do much exploring but just hung around Federation Space most of the time.

Or then Kirk had nothing to do with either "missions" or the Enterprise, which gives him the excuse to be a bitch about getting the ship back.

We know from Voyager that the 5YM ended in 2270, and in general it seems the consensus is TMP took place around 2273 (with late 2272 or very early 2274 being a possibility).

But that in turn is contradicted by the movie itself, where it's said it's more than 300 years since the Voyager 6 launch. Voyagers were probes specific to the late 1970s, designed for the Grand Tour mission that could not have been launched any earlier even in an alternate universe...

There's a reason why that line about Voyager 6 launch was written the way it was. Back in the day, the fan assumption was that Star Trek takes place 300 years in the future - sharp! TMP appears to fully follow that pattern, the only hiccup with a 2279 dating being that these folks at SF HQ wear uniforms that are different from those "already" being worn aboard deep space starships. (But that much is true in the Abrams movies anyway, without any "already" assumptions.)

It's a bit clunky, but I think what they were getting at is Kirk became the captain of the Enterprise either around 2264 or 2265 and the beginning portion of Generations is in 2293 or 2294 I believe. And Kirk was captain of the first two Enterprises at least for significant periods of time, including for the last 7 or 8 years of the Enterprise-A. That makes it about 30 years roughly.

But the reporter here is making a story about a ship, not people. The E-B comes three decades after Kirk first commanded an Enterprise. It doesn't matter how many years or hours Kirk spent aboard specific Enterprises - the beef here is that he never skipped an Enterprise. Until now.

So I just assumed the reporter was making a general statement.

A reporter would go for an angle. It was all about the ship, and about how the public should view it. Kirk is going to tell them how to view it, and hopefully will say something controversial when prodded. It's the first one that's not his, after all, and the reporter is specifically rubbing that in.

...if you just use that for argument's sake, then that would mean Kirk was captain of a ship named Enterprise for more than 75% of those years.

For the purposes of this, it fully suffices that Kirk spent at least one hour commanding each Enterprise before the E-B, though. How does he feel about not being able to do that this time around?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Damian]

But that in turn is contradicted by the movie itself, where it's said it's more than 300 years since the Voyager 6 launch. Voyagers were probes specific to the late 1970s, designed for the Grand Tour mission that could not have been launched any earlier even in an alternate universe...

There's a reason why that line about Voyager 6 launch was written the way it was. Back in the day, the fan assumption was that Star Trek takes place 300 years in the future - sharp! TMP appears to fully follow that pattern, the only hiccup with a 2279 dating being that these folks at SF HQ wear uniforms that are different from those "already" being worn aboard deep space starships.

I was never a big fan of them saying it was Voyager 6 since there never was a Voyager 6 and as far as I know none were even planned. So I was never sure why they used that to begin with. And you just have to take the 300 years as a basic assumption, because in the very next movie Khan said he left Earth 200 years before, which would then place TWOK at 2196, which does not make sense at all since even the beginning of TWOK says it takes place in the 23rd century. I just take the 300 year/200 year comments in the 2 movies as the PTBs at the time hadn't yet settled on firm years yet. Nowadays we have so you just have to take the dialogue with a grain of salt. In story in TMP maybe you could say Decker was just misremembering the exact year Voyager was launched. And in TWOK maybe Khan lost track of time through the hardships he faced.

But, setting that aside I've already granted that people at the time the movie came out probably had varying views of how long after the original series that TMP took place. It's just now we have a lot more information and can make some pretty good assumptions when TMP takes place. I believe 2273 makes some sense. I mean, it makes a certain logical sense. We already know TWOK took place about 15 years after "Space Seed", give or take. So if TMP does take place around 2279 instead of 2273 that means Starfleet went to a lot of trouble to refit the Enterprise for it to be decommissioned about 4 or 5 years later. That sounds like a real waste of resources to do a complete overhaul, right down to the hull plates, to decommission it 5 years later. 2273, and a 10+ year lifespan, seems to make more sense from that perspective.

But if someone wants to continue to assume it was 10 years after the end of the 5YM (about 2279 or 80), have at it.

 

[Smellmet]

I would say no. Spock was clearly in command at the beginning of TWOK and the ship was being used in an entirely different capacity. There's clearly been a fairly sizeable passage of time between the two movies (which has been a long running debate on these boards) Bones even says to Kirk 'get back your command, get it back before you become part of this collection...'

I'd say that's fairly conclusive. How long he remained in command after the events of TMP are unclear, but he was effectively 'drafted' as an emergency measure to take command for the Vger incident, so there's no reason to think he didn't just return to the desk job just as quickly.

I actually think that TMP and TWOK complement each other better than you would think when you watch them back to back. I don't really buy into this 'soft reboot' thing. I think it's fine as it is.

 

[Damian]

I actually think that TMP and TWOK complement each other better than you would think when you watch them back to back. I don't really buy into this 'soft reboot' thing. I think it's fine as it is

Yeah, I agree. In many ways it's just like the original TV series. It was rare that a later episode referenced a prior episode.

TWOK and TMP are very much the same. TWOK not referencing TMP directly is not really abnormal when you think about it.

Certainly part of it was they wanted TWOK to be viewed as a completely different film from TMP, and there's no secret many of the people writing/producing TWOK just didn't feel any connection to TMP.

But I never got the impression the intent was to 'override' or cancel out TMP, or even do a soft reboot.

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah, I agree. In many ways it's just like the original TV series. It was rare that a later episode referenced a prior episode.

TWOK and TMP are very much the same. TWOK not referencing TMP directly is not really abnormal when you think about it.

Certainly part of it was they wanted TWOK to be viewed as a completely different film from TMP, and there's no secret many of the people writing/producing TWOK just didn't feel any connection to TMP.

But I never got the impression the intent was to 'override' or cancel out TMP, or even do a soft reboot.

I did not get that impression either. I always felt there was some sort of time gap between the two, if undefined. I think there is room between TMP and TWOK for another tour of the Enterprise prior to it being assigned to the Academy. And, honestly, it's just like an episode of TOS, with little connective tissue from one adventure to another, aside from the ship and crew.

Honestly, I think that Kirk had some assignment over the Academy, and he requested the rest of the Enterprise crew to provide education based upon their experience and time in the service. And, I see no reason why experienced officers couldn't guest lecture at the Academy either.

 

[Smellmet]

Yeah, I agree. In many ways it's just like the original TV series. It was rare that a later episode referenced a prior episode.

TWOK and TMP are very much the same. TWOK not referencing TMP directly is not really abnormal when you think about it.

Certainly part of it was they wanted TWOK to be viewed as a completely different film from TMP, and there's no secret many of the people writing/producing TWOK just didn't feel any connection to TMP.

But I never got the impression the intent was to 'override' or cancel out TMP, or even do a soft reboot.

Obviously the tone of the two films are different, but as the sets are the same, and the re-used footage ironically, I don't think it particularly jars. I just see TWOK as taking place an unspecified number of years later, and things have changed.

 

[valkyrie013]

I always felt that the Refit, after going back to earth to finish being refit, and trial runs, that Kirk commanded her for another 5 year mission, which takes it up to.. 2278? Then was promoted again, maybe 2 star, and couldn't command a ship, so he used his power to get the Enterprise as a cadet ship, with Spock in command, and him slipping off on "Trainee" crusies occasionally till TWOK happened. Then the Enterprise A he commanded for another 5 year mission, then TUC happened and it was decommissioned and he went the Nexus route.

 

[thribs]

He did another 5 year mission and then he went to teach at the academy, with the Enterprise turned into a training vessel. That’s when Wrath of Khan takes place.

 

[drt]

Obviously the tone of the two films are different, but as the sets are the same, and the re-used footage ironically, I don't think it particularly jars. I just see TWOK as taking place an unspecified number of years later, and things have changed.

It really helps the continuity arguement that TWOK's tv-movie budget forced the heavy reuse of TMP assets. If Meyer had real money, I think everything would have looked a lot different to better fit his Royal Navy in space vision.

 

[Smellmet]

It really helps the continuity arguement that TWOK's tv-movie budget forced the heavy reuse of TMP assets. If Meyer had real money, I think everything would have looked a lot different to better fit his Royal Navy in space vision.

It's funny how these things turn out isn't it, the low budget also meant they had to double down on the character and plot which is also what contributed to it being such a great film.

 

[yotsuya]

The key things for me are as follows:
Kirk commenting about 5 years out there. This implies only 1 5 year mission.
Decker calling out 2.5 years since Kirk was in command, 18 of which the Enterprise has been going through this refit.
Dialog from the series that establishes when crew came and went. Spock served with Pike for 11 years, and The Cage was 13 years before The Menagerie. In season 2, Sulu has been on the ship for 2 years. Spock hasn't seen his parents in 4 years in Journey to Babel. While stardates are not reliable measures of time, the stardates for WNMHGB and the other early 1st season episodes are close so they should be close in time.
McCoy presents Kirk Romulan ale vintage 2283.
Khan says it has been 15 years (this might be only an estimate because we don't know what years/day he is referencing).
The dialog between Kirk and the others makes the promotion feel new. Like he was in command after TMP and got promoted again and the Enterprise became a training ship under Spock.
There is only months that pass between TWOK and HMS Bounty's arrival in San Francisco.
TFF is right after TVH because Scotty has been working on fixing the ship's system. This is the first voyage of the 1701-A. TUC is the last voyage.
Generations references Champaign from 2265 (significant if that is the year Kirk took command) and that this is the first Enterprise in 30 years without Kirk in Command. We already know that Decker and Spock both served as captain so the 30 years is not continuous.

To put these together you have to make assumptions. Some may be correct and some may not.

When you put Spock's service with Pike in context, Pike left 2 years before The Menagerie. Possibly earlier. The first we see Kirk or Sulu is WNMHGB, so this has to be within that 2 years Sulu mentioned. This is from the Deadly Years so halfway through Season 2. So we have to wonder if there was a temporary commander between Pike and Kirk. If the Enterprise was laid up, if it went through a major refit, or what went on. I tend to assume that when people speak of round years they are not being very exact. But we get this same coflict with Khan. Space Seed was at the end of season 1. TWOK is after 2283. But Khan is on an alien planet whose orbit is disturbed. So it could be 15 Ceti Alpha years. As there is no reference point, the 15 years can be very general. Placing it nearly 20 years after Space Seed can still make sense if we assume the change made Ceti Alpha's year get longer. And whether you place it in 2283 or 2286 doesn't matter too much. I think that Generations (after all the dates in TNG are taken into account) really implies that Kirk commanded the Enterprise most of the time over a roughly 30 year period. Officially it is 2265 to 2293, but you adjust the first part of generations a year or two later.

I think that Kirk commanded the Enterprise after TMP for at least one 5 year mission. And he commanded 1701-A for at least one 5 years mission. He was the only commander of that ship under the name Enterprise. Some speculate it was a different ship before, though Scotty's comment the builders in TFF makes that unlikely, and some that the ship may have carried on under a different name after Kirk. If Kirk had remained an admiral for the 9-13 years between TMP and TWOK, the dialog would not make any sense. The only way the dialog makes any sense is if he remained as captain for at least 1 five year mission and the was promoted again and the Enterprise retired to training duty. And The admiral's comment in TSFS about the enterprise being 20 has never made any sense, but it does if he is in effect saying "You've had her for 20 years" (2265 to 2286). At a minimum the Enterprise is 28 years old, and that doesn't account for April or the other hints that it was older than that. But Kirk being in command for 20 year, like the reporter mentioning 30 years in Generations, makes a lot of sense.

So I maintain that Kirk commanded at least 3 five year missions. The original, 1 after TMP, and one on 1701-A. And depending on where you place TWOK/TSFS/TVH, you could fit one more in before or after.

 

[Damian]

It really helps the continuity arguement that TWOK's tv-movie budget forced the heavy reuse of TMP assets. If Meyer had real money, I think everything would have looked a lot different to better fit his Royal Navy in space vision.

It's funny how these things turn out isn't it, the low budget also meant they had to double down on the character and plot which is also what contributed to it being such a great film.

I wonder if Meyer really would have changed everything up. I know he's said he prefers a more naval atmosphere and certain other things, but I always got the impression those were if he was creating the franchise. But he didn't and he just used the tools he was given.

Meyer strikes me as the type for whom the story itself and character development is more important. Even if he had a TMP budget I'm not sure he would feel it was worth his time to change everything just to change it. He did, after all, retain the production designers in the 2 films he did. They added somethings, touched up some things, but otherwise everything was carried over.

Of course, I think part of the reason Paramount hired Meyer in the first place was because he could make a good movie with the tools at hand to begin with, thus saving money. He didn't need to change everything up to make his story.

 

[arch101]

Nothing filmed confirms what happened between TMP and TWOK, but virtually every published timeline, novel or comic suggests a second 5 year mission for Kirk and co. The whole thing was really screwed up by the suggestion in TMP that only 2.5 years had passed when in reality 10 had. That would have been an unsustainable situation as the actors aged. TWOK takes place both fictionally and really 15 years after Space Seed. So, that fixes that. But we now have to fill in the years between TMP and TWOK. I find it hard to believe that Kirk would have spent that whole time as an academy admiral. I’m much more Inclined to follow Christopher Bennett’s timeline in his novels- it makes the most sense.

 

[valkyrie013]

Well if TMP happened 10 years latter, then the refit Enterprise went from new shinny penny in 2280 to being decommissioned after Khans battle in 2285? and thats after probably years as a trainee ship. the 2.5 years makes more sense, and they fixed it with TWOK by making it in 2285 to fit the actors ages.

 

[ChallengerHK]

This is probably a can of worms being opened, but is there any real evidence that 5 years is a standard mission length?

 

[Kor]

This is probably a can of worms being opened, but is there any real evidence that 5 years is a standard mission length?

"Cannnnnonically," it was the length of the USS Enterprise's mission at the time of TOS and TAS. I think there is kind of a "fanon" acceptance of the idea that several Constitution-class (or Starship-class) vessels were sent out on five-year missions of exploration. This was mentioned in the Reeves-Stevens' novel Prime Directive, IIRC. But it was never actually stated in the series or movies that other ships were also on five-year missions like the Enterprise, or that if the Enterprise was to be sent out again on a similar mission, that it would also be five years long.

Kor

 

[Smellmet]

I wonder if Meyer really would have changed everything up. I know he's said he prefers a more naval atmosphere and certain other things, but I always got the impression those were if he was creating the franchise. But he didn't and he just used the tools he was given.

Meyer strikes me as the type for whom the story itself and character development is more important. Even if he had a TMP budget I'm not sure he would feel it was worth his time to change everything just to change it. He did, after all, retain the production designers in the 2 films he did. They added somethings, touched up some things, but otherwise everything was carried over.

Of course, I think part of the reason Paramount hired Meyer in the first place was because he could make a good movie with the tools at hand to begin with, thus saving money. He didn't need to change everything up to make his story.

Even if paramount had ponied up another 45m for TWOK I doubt Meyer would have redesigned the Enterprise sets, I mean why bother? They were pretty lavish for the day and looked great. Besides, even with a bigger budget I doubt the studio would have stood for such profligacy, we would have probably had bespoke shots of the Enterprise leaving drydock, the regula station model and better sets for the station interior and genesis cave. All total speculation of course.