Did Kirk command the Enterprise for a while after TMP?

[Timo]

I have yet to see anything that doesn't allow for TMP to be in its own universe.

Yeah. I mean, what sort of contrary proof could even theoretically exist? It's always possible to state "the first three minutes of TMP/Raiders of the Lost Ark/Jumanji/the 1988 Olympics take place in a different universe from the rest", regardless of whether they are somehow distinct from the rest or not.

It has little to no connection to any other Trek series or movie.

That's mostly true of every TOS episode, too. Or of most pairs of Trek TV shows. Connections are not a major or desirable feature in episodic entertainment, and Trek has seldom gone for cross-serializing, save for the 1990s.

For that matter the launch of Voyager 6 doesn't really groove with developments in the Trek universe in the late 20th century. They were launching DY100 series nuclear ships by the 90s, and Friendship One not long later.

Yet they were still launching Saturn Vs in the late 1960s. We don't know when exactly the Trek space program diverged drastically from ours, but it's quite possible it happened after 1977, at which time the only significant difference was that there were six Grand Tourers, not two.

After all, the diverging there is going to be a single event: the inventing of a propulsion system superior to the real-world ones. And it probably won't be a gradual event by any standard. Once the secret is out, every nation or other power will want their own superengine and supership, and we can forget all about chemical rockets and Hohmann transfer orbits.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[WarpFactorZ]

When you come down to it, Star Trek is episodic and rarely are any previous adventures mentioned. We have some sequel stories, but other than that they don't refer to older stories. Movies 2-4 are connected so they really form a single long story. But you don't get much reference to that in 5 or 6.

This. I find it somewhat funny that Trek is so beholden to continuity and canon, yet prior to TWOK-TVH, there was very little, if any, continuity! It was really TNG that solidified the franchise as "one universe" with TOS references, and even then season 1 was very weakly strung together.

Over the years, I've come to think that TWOK was what happened after they sent Gene home because he was drunk, threw TMP in the trash, and made Trek the way it should have been.

 

[fireproof78]

This. I find it somewhat funny that Trek is so beholden to continuity and canon, yet prior to TWOK-TVH, there was very little, if any, continuity! It was really TNG that solidified the franchise as "one universe" with TOS references, and even then season 1 was very weakly strung together.

Indeed, yes.

 

[Damian]

This. I find it somewhat funny that Trek is so beholden to continuity and canon, yet prior to TWOK-TVH, there was very little, if any, continuity! It was really TNG that solidified the franchise as "one universe" with TOS references, and even then season 1 was very weakly strung together.

Over the years, I've come to think that TWOK was what happened after they sent Gene home because he was drunk, threw TMP in the trash, and made Trek the way it should have been.

I think part of that is just the times. When Star Trek first aired in the 1960s most shows were episodic. Star Trek actually maintained a tighter continuity at that time then many of its contemporaries, though nothing like today.

For example, I always liked "I Dream of Jeannie" and that continuity was constantly being revised. First it was if Jeannie ever got married she'd lose her powers. But she did get married and nothing happened. Then at first her parents were just mortals, later genies. And there were many other examples. Star Trek had some inconsistencies here and there, but the overall series did have a bit of a flow to it that makes some sense.

But each series reflected the times it was made in. TNG was primarily episodic, but there was a stronger continuity within the show. DS9 was the first to dabble with serialized storytelling and each series went from there. The last 2 seasons of Enterprise took it even further. And now with Discovery is so serialized it's rare to see an episode on its own (as I presume is the case with Picard).

But when you look at the TV landscape today, that's how TV is. And I think Star Trek as a franchise generally reflects the time it was made in.

Personally I like a little of both. I enjoy some serialized story telling. But I don't mind a standalone episode here and there as well. It's nice to have an episode where a problem arises and is solved by the end of the episode.

And yes, I am a continuity junkie and serialized stories play into that. Though you can certainly have episodic shows that still have a continuity (which is where I go back to the original series--it's not serialized at all, but there's still a bit of continuity there).

And when it comes to TWOK vs. TMP I never got the sense they weren't in the same universe, or that TWOK was a 'soft reboot' or anything. I don't need references or a story line that binds them together. For me, just the fact that TWOK does nothing to contradict anything in TMP is enough for me personally. It helps they used the same sets and ship (the uniforms changes are pretty minor to me, and of course they have changed since so even that is consistent).

In a way I compare it to The Exorcist III, after Exorcist II: The Heretic (I'm one of a select few that liked Exorcist II also, what can I say). William Peter Blatty hated Exorcist II and wanted nothing to do with it. But when you see III there is nothing there that actually contradicts II. They even focus on different characters. TWOK and TMP are much the same.

 

[drt]

This. I find it somewhat funny that Trek is so beholden to continuity and canon, yet prior to TWOK-TVH, there was very little, if any, continuity! It was really TNG that solidified the franchise as "one universe" with TOS references, and even then season 1 was very weakly strung together.

I think it's clear that Roddenberry intended TMP to be a soft reboot of the Trekverse, he pretty much explicitly states this in the novelization.

There are also quite a few things in TNG season 1 that are retconned away later in the show's run. As others have pointed out elsewhere, the reason being that as control shifted away from Roddenberry, who wasn't as married to maintaining continuity, those that took the reins were Trek fans, and as such, more concerned that everything fit together.

 

[BK613]

I'm pretty sure it is 1966 to 1981 more than any time frame for the characters.

Yes, that actually seemed to be the intent. It certainly explains ADM Morrow's comment about the Enterprise's age in TSFS.

Yeah, I think we can take 15 Earth years at face value. I mean, maybe give or take a year, sometimes people round it out. And I don't think the writers would have written 15 years if that's not what they intended.

Agree.

 

[BillJ]

I find it hard to believe that Kirk would have spent that whole time as an academy admiral.

I’m not sure he was an “Academy Admiral” in TWOK. I figure he was still Chief of StarFleet Operations, this was simply the class he was mentoring.

This is probably a can of worms being opened, but is there any real evidence that 5 years is a standard mission length?

Nope. Never liked the idea of every person in the fleet commanding multiple five year missions. There would be more to StarFleet than that, and it shows a severe lack of imagination.

 

[drt]

I liked the way the five-year missions were presented in the Kelvinverse, a new deep-space program for a select few ships and that once they leave Earth, there was no returning until the end of the mission.

TOS largely followed this, except for the few occasions when they were in Earth's neighborhood. This was to be TNG's mandate as well, but with a longer mission length (which is why the families were onboard). Farpoint was supposed to be the edge of Federation space and everything beyond that new territory, but that largely went out the window by the end of the first season.

 

[yotsuya]

This. I find it somewhat funny that Trek is so beholden to continuity and canon, yet prior to TWOK-TVH, there was very little, if any, continuity! It was really TNG that solidified the franchise as "one universe" with TOS references, and even then season 1 was very weakly strung together.

Over the years, I've come to think that TWOK was what happened after they sent Gene home because he was drunk, threw TMP in the trash, and made Trek the way it should have been.

I think you are right that those who came later cared more. But it was really the Okudas who solidified the timeline, adapting as best they could to the hodgepodge of dates and references in TOS and the movies.

To put it in modern dates, TOS was 65 (WNMHGB) to 69. The 5 year mission ended in 70. TMP was in 72/73. TWOK was after 83 (86 in the official timeline). TUC was around 93/95. So TMP was supposed to be after less time than the movie was after the series. They kind of reset that for TWOK, but then the next 3 movies were in short succesion in the timeline (when the films were made over 7 years). So then TUC went back to being about where it should be. They pushed it out 2 years to 93 for the official timeline. And the TOS section of Generations was also 93. When in reality it was 65 to 69, 79, 82, 84, 86, 89, 91, 95 for TOS to Generations.

I've always had a few issues with the official timeline, but that is what they went forward with. Do you include TAS? Is that the end of the 5 year mission? When did Kirk take command? Was some of the mission before we started the series? But in general I agree with it to within a couple of years. In my timeline you have WNMHGB not too long after Kirk becomes captain and then after the damage the ship goes in for a major refit that takes several months and we start the series like 6 or more months after Sulu joins the crew. We have 3 seasons cover 3 years and then a year and a half for TAS and anything else you want to include (books or one of the fan productions) before the 5 year mission ends. Then 2.5 years to TMP. Then a gap... nothing official, only hints from dialog. Then TWOK/TSFS/TVH/TFF. Then a gap with Kirk as Captain. Then TUC and Generations. How long those gaps are is not specified. We can guess where TWOK fits form the 15 years in the dialog, but in some ways some of the episodes might make a better organized timeline if they where shuffled about a bit. The Menagerie should almost be 2 years into the mission unless Kirk took over at the end of Pike's last mission. Some have tried to set WNMHGB earlier with a gap and Season 3 as the end of the 5 year mission. But whatever way, you really have a lot of room to shuffle things around without damaging any continuity with the later series. I prefer to stick to production order for the episodes and the timeline I've outlined above for the movies with TAS being a 4th season and representing the end of the 5 year mission. I liked Star Trek Continues, but when they destroyed all the other Starships for the finale they lost me. Again a case of not checking the timeline and the behind the scenes references that many of us consider a secondary and canon to be followed where possible.

 

[jackoverfull]

WNMHGB not too long after Kirk becomes captain and then after the damage the ship goes in for a major refit that takes several months and we start the series like 6 or more months after Sulu joins the crew.

sulu was on board in WNMHGB already, he was one of the heads of departments and one of his few lines consisted in explaining exponential growth.

 

[Nerys Myk]

sulu was on board in WNMHGB already, he was one of the heads of departments and one of his few lines consisted in explaining exponential growth.

Yep, Sulu was the science guy for one episode. Or "astro-science" guy as was stated in the episode. Spock was a little more First Officer-ish in that one.

 

[jackoverfull]

For the first four episodes or so, I think. Wasn’t he head botanist in Man trap?

 

[Nerys Myk]

For the first four episodes or so, I think. Wasn’t he head botanist in Man trap?

I think that was just one of his hobbies. By episode 3 (production order) he's a helmsman.

 

[Smellmet]

I think it's clear that Roddenberry intended TMP to be a soft reboot of the Trekverse, he pretty much explicitly states this in the novelization.

There are also quite a few things in TNG season 1 that are retconned away later in the show's run. As others have pointed out elsewhere, the reason being that as control shifted away from Roddenberry, who wasn't as married to maintaining continuity, those that took the reins were Trek fans, and as such, more concerned that everything fit together.

I never even saw it as that, I just saw TMP as the same universe continued but with more money to spend on how it looked and the fact it was a major movie. TWOK waa just years later, new uniforms? Doesn't matter as we never saw the years in between.

Like I said before it all still works for me.

 

[Lord Garth]

I think that was just one of his hobbies. By episode 3 (production order) he's a helmsman.

Upward mobility too. Helmsman was something that could lead to Captain and Botanist wasn't. Looks like he was 4th in Command in TOS.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Upward mobility too. Helmsman was something that could lead to Captain and Botanist wasn't. Looks like he was 4th in Command in TOS.

The Man Trap (the one where he is in the Botany lab) shows him at the helm at the episode's end. There is also a scene where Sulu pretty much takes charge while Kirk and Spock are on the planet. Scotty is more or less AWOL in this episode.

SULU: GQ three now secured except for decks five, seven, and ten. Come in, please.
UHURA: He's not in supply and maintenance.
SULU: Go to Engineering now. Run through file photos of the crewmen there.
UHURA: Check.
SECURITY [OC]: Deck five reporting. Crewman Green is not in his quarters. No one has seen him
SULU: Keep in mind if you find him, he's not Crewman Green. The Captain reports Crewman Green is dead.
RAND: And he, or rather it, followed me. I thought there was something twitchy about him.
SULU: He, whatever, was probably your crewman, too, Lieutenant.
UHURA: He must have been it. You know, I would have remembered a crewman like him.
MCCOY: The creature leading you a merry chase, Mister Sulu?
SULU: The creature?
MCCOY: Or whatever it is that's killing the crewmen. Perhaps I can help. Fill me in.

So fourth in command seems right, at least in the Man Trap.

 

[Henoch]

Upward mobility too. Helmsman was something that could lead to Captain and Botanist wasn't. Looks like he was 4th in Command in TOS.

Assistant Chief Engineer, Lt. DeSalle was 5th in Command in Catspaw since Kirk, Spock, Scott and Sulu where all on the planet surface at the same time.

 

[J.T.B.]

Yep, Sulu was the science guy for one episode. Or "astro-science" guy as was stated in the episode. Spock was a little more First Officer-ish in that one.

Spock was also science officer in WNMHGB, though. In the original writer's bible it says that science officer is ex officio second in command.

Sulu is jumped over Scotty to take command in "Arena," which always annoyed me a bit.

 

[Warped9]

TMP should have been set ten years after TOS, but dialog in the film states it's less than three years after TOS' 5-year mission. It's strongly implied in TMP that things are back the way they should be and the familiar crew is back aboard the refit Enterprise for another mission.

TWOK feels as if it's suggesting TMP never happened since those events are never again referenced in successive films or series. But if we go by time references in TWOK then it takes place about 10-12 years after TMP. Thats plenty of time for at least one more voyage under Kirk. GEN implies Kirk has commanded an Enterprise (1701 and 1701A) for thirty years (which is a ridiculous notion). But going by that then Kirk did indeed stay with the Enterprise after TMP.

"The Menagerie" established it wasn't impossible for someone to command the same ship for several years given Spock states he served with Pike for nine years. So Pike had the Enterprise for maybe at least ten years before handing it over to Kirk. With that precedent then it's not impossible to see Kirk commanding the Enterprise for easily ten years plus.

 

[BillJ]

Sulu is jumped over Scotty to take command in "Arena," which always annoyed me a bit.

Scotty was hungover.