Did Enterprise fandom dissipate exceptionally thoroughly?

[Hopeful Romantic]

I'm not sure if the above post was necessary, since this “argument” helps to understand why ENT does not have the large fandom of its predecessors.

If @Mutai Sho-Rin had not spoken up, I would have. Why, you may be wondering?

If you don't see the massive differences between nuBSG and ENT, I'm not sure what to tell you.

I'm not sure why you are getting wound up about it.

And wound up? I’ve been perfectly civil in this discussion, unlike some others who feel the need to say stupid things like ‘chill out.’

"Perfectly civil"? Come now @Dukhat, that "stupid" crack was certainly not civil. Tone it down, please.

Rather than a good-natured exchange of differing viewpoints and genuine interest in your fellow members' perspectives, this thread has become quite prickly, downright uncomfortable to read. No wonder Mutai is ready to shut it down.

This is a discussion board, not a needling, one-upping, says-youing, last-word-itis board. You won't win or lose a battle of personal opinions; this is not a competition. Every opinion has value to those who hold it.

Please endeavor to disagree without being disagreeable. In other words...chill. Thanks.

 

[FederationHistorian]

I was not intending to ask why the fandom for Enterprise was not as large as other Trek fandoms but rather why it was not as lasting.

My question was why these fans seem to have disappeared.

The other shows have larger fanbases, which meant that there is always new content for them, because larger fanbases = money. This allows them to be lasting. They seem to be tied together.

ENT doesn’t get new content that appeals to its smaller fanbase. Basically, in the minds of TPTB, its not worth the expense to make new content. This makes it hard for fans to remain invested long term because there is no more content to digest. Name drops of ENT characters in the new shows don’t really do anything for them.

I'd bet money that if ENT was marketed as a reboot instead of a prequel, it wouldn't have lasted more than 1 season... 2 at most.

The early ‘00s was also the beginning of reboots, along with prequels being the in thing. So I’m not so sure that ENT would have had less seasons than it actually did if it was acknowledged as a reboot of Star Trek from the get go.

It worked for the Kelvin films after all.

I agree about UPN being the big problem. Their interference on VOYAGER was really noticeable and hamstrung the writers from making it a better show.

UPN also hasn't been around for 15+ years. TPTB could have resumed the story with a new showrunner and more creative freedom at any time. That era just does not get development, as they don't seem interested in it. The only time that era has received any development onscreen since ENT went off the air was the first ten minutes of ST'09 and Beyond.

 

[Finn]

Networks always had interfered with show development. See FOX.

 

[Sumire]

Thank you for your thoughtful response @FederationHistorian. The size of the fan base does need to be taken into consideration. I used to view Trek fans as a collective fan base. Certainly there were favorite episodes, favorite characters, favorite series but it was all part of the lore and all of interest and I assumed there was a modicum of affection for all of it.

I imagined fans would remain who were actively working Enterprise into the lore as they understood it. Writing meta reflecting insights gleaned from new Trek offerings. Making fan edits (I think that’s the current lingo for videos set to music). Dreaming up new fix-it fics. Drawing the characters, maybe even as they aged. Enterprise was long over but it was a part of an ongoing beloved world so it wouldn’t be forgotten.

My month(ish) on this board has brought into focus something that I sometimes saw referenced in articles, a number of Trek fans have allegiance to specific shows and revile other shows. In spending most of the past ten years of my fandom life on Tumblr and AO3, I was largely shielded from the vitriol aimed at unpopular Trek offerings.

Voyager fans, for example, may think Threshold was bizarre but fans on Tumblr have come to celebrate that bizarreness. It’s affectionately roasted. I erroneously expected that from the Trek fandom at large — a good-natured ribbing of Enterprise for its missteps but not a profound distaste for it. I am saddened to see that isn’t the case.

 

[fireproof78]

I erroneously expected that from the Trek fandom at large — a good-natured ribbing of Enterprise for its missteps but not a profound distaste for it. I am saddened to see that isn’t the case.

Trek fandom can be quite divided, and ENT is not the first time I've experienced it. I am old enough to recall TNG and VOY's initial airings, and the pushback that I got for liking TOS but not TNG. ENT was on the opposite end of my experience. Many people liked VOY and DS9 and were trying those out, but ENT just hit wrong. Either the wrong time, or the characters didn't work, or what have you. But, yeah, Trek fans are not kind to those installments they don't like.

 

[Dukhat]

The early ‘00s was also the beginning of reboots, along with prequels being the in thing. So I’m not so sure that ENT would have had less seasons than it actually did if it was acknowledged as a reboot of Star Trek from the get go.

It worked for the Kelvin films after all.

There's a huge difference between ENT and the Abrams films. Abrams made a choice to set his films in an alternate universe and make it a prequel of sorts, but had that not been the case, they still would have been hugely successful. So it's not about the reboot/prequel factor.

Trek fandom can be quite divided, and ENT is not the first time I've experienced it. I am old enough to recall TNG and VOY's initial airings, and the pushback that I got for liking TOS but not TNG. ENT was on the opposite end of my experience. Many people liked VOY and DS9 and were trying those out, but ENT just hit wrong. Either the wrong time, or the characters didn't work, or what have you. But, yeah, Trek fans are not kind to those installments they don't like.

Even Shatner and Nimoy were quite vocal about their disdain for TNG when it first premiered (although I'm almost certain the disdain stemmed from their fear that TNG would eclipse them, not because of any specific issues they had with the show.)

 

[FederationHistorian]

Thank you for your thoughtful response @FederationHistorian. The size of the fan base does need to be taken into consideration. I used to view Trek fans as a collective fan base. Certainly there were favorite episodes, favorite characters, favorite series but it was all part of the lore and all of interest and I assumed there was a modicum of affection for all of it.

I imagined fans would remain who were actively working Enterprise into the lore as they understood it. Writing meta reflecting insights gleaned from new Trek offerings. Making fan edits (I think that’s the current lingo for videos set to music). Dreaming up new fix-it fics. Drawing the characters, maybe even as they aged. Enterprise was long over but it was a part of an ongoing beloved world so it wouldn’t be forgotten.

My month(ish) on this board has brought into focus something that I sometimes saw referenced in articles, a number of Trek fans have allegiance to specific shows and revile other shows. In spending most of the past ten years of my fandom life on Tumblr and AO3, I was largely shielded from the vitriol aimed at unpopular Trek offerings.

Voyager fans, for example, may think Threshold was bizarre but fans on Tumblr have come to celebrate that bizarreness. It’s affectionately roasted. I erroneously expected that from the Trek fandom at large — a good-natured ribbing of Enterprise for its missteps but not a profound distaste for it. I am saddened to see that isn’t the case.

There’s also the fact that when the fans campaigned to save ENT after it was cancelled and raised enough money for a tv movie, they were rejected by the studio because they had already demolished the sets by then. Even though I’m quite certain the studio could have still used various CG studio models from VOY and ENT, filmed in some real world locations, use green screens if need be, mixed some old footage if need be (ex. the series finale, various space battle footage) and do a decent job. The latter part of reusing old footage is nothing unusual in Trek, as “The Menagerie” reused scenes from The Cage, “Shades of Grey” reused scenes from the first two seasons of TNG, Generations reused the Bird of Prey explosion from TUC, and DS9 reused various space battles scenes as the Dominion war arc progressed. Even Discovery reused the footage from The Cage again in “If Memory Serves” only a few years ago. All the studio needed was an imagination.

Having done my own fan edits in the past couple of years further reaffirmed this viewpoint. I couldn’t upload it all because its too long and gets a copyright claim on Youtube (Paramount's fan film edicts is to blame). But it still is and always was doable.

So yes, I would say that the rejection from the studio was disastrous in terms of fan participation lasting long term, since it sends a message that ENT was not on the level of TOS. Since the Save Enterprise campaign was modeled on the campaign for TOS in the '70s.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

I liked the series as much as any overall. I did only just get around to ordering the blu-ray set the other day. So, looking forward to a rewatch.

It's possible, at the time, Star Trek was a little bit exhausted by the then showrunners. Being in the second ST renaissance at the moment, I hope they don't wear it out again (as much as I'd love 52 episodes a year).

 

[fireproof78]

All the studio needed was an imagination.

And a willingness to spend money.

Even Shatner and Nimoy were quite vocal about their disdain for TNG when it first premiered (although I'm almost certain the disdain stemmed from their fear that TNG would eclipse them, not because of any specific issues they had with the show.)

Which is hilarious to think about with the connective tissue in TUC.

 

[Dukhat]

And a willingness to spend money.

This, 100%. It is not the studio’s job to have an imagination. It is the writers and directors that studio hires. The studio’s job is to give the writers and directors sufficient funds to allow the writers’ and directors’ vision to be interpreted. And if the writers’ and directors’ vision is out of line with the studio’s budget, then the studio either has to cough up more money to make that vision happen the way the writer and director intended, or that vision needs to change accordingly. Nine times out of ten, it’s the latter. And when it’s the former, you can bet that the studio is none too happy about it.

Which is hilarious to think about with the connective tissue in TUC.

Well, a lot can change in five years (and in this case, what changed was how popular TNG actually became in spite of, not because of, Shatner and Nimoy.)

 

[FederationHistorian]

And a willingness to spend money.

And yet it wasn’t the studio's money. It was money raised by the fandom, from the fandom. I'm not sure what the studio had to lose airing the Enterprise Holiday Special on the then-new CW network, completely driven and funded with fandom money, but okay.

 

[Dukhat]

Networks were not in the habit of taking money from fans to finance their projects. But even if they did, how much money did the fandom raise, and how much would it have covered?

 

[fireproof78]

And yet it wasn’t the studio's money. It was money raised by the fandom, from the fandom. I'm not sure what the studio had to lose airing the Enterprise Holiday Special on the then-new CW network, completely driven and funded with fandom money, but okay.

That's not how Hollywood works. They still have contracts, production and guild rules.

 

[Sumire]

My goodness! I had no idea fans raised money for an Enterprise TV movie! What year was this? It would seem a plausible idea in the current streaming world where a number of shows have been “saved” by streaming services and even things like Miss Fisher’s Murder Mysteries and Veronica Mars got fan-funded movies. However from the “they already demolished the sets,” I’m guessing this is closer to the time of the original show’s ending since that would not come as a surprise in like 2019.

 

[Dukhat]

Fans tried to raise money to keep ENT on the air for a fifth season. Paramount did not take their money and never had plans to do so.

https://www.trektoday.com/news/180405_04.shtml

 

[Finn]

I heard about a million was raised, around the time that was going on. That link suggests about three million dollars...Mmm.

 

[Sumire]

Thank you for the link @Dukhat! When I went sleuthing, I wasn’t able to find anything but a Facebook-based campaign around 2013 for Netflix to stream a Season 5 and, once again, that’s a little late to be surprised by set demolition.

I know times were very different in 2005 so I am not startled by the studio’s rejection. However, I salute my fellow fans’ enthusiasm because that was a lot of money that obviously represented a lot of hope. Fans truly did “Rage, rage against the dying of the light,” and that is a type of solace. Despite the negative reception by many, this did show the actors and creators that there were people who appreciated their hard work and in the end, did not let it go without a fight.

 

[valkyrie013]

going rate for an episode was around 2 million, maybe less, so if it was 3 million, could have done a 2 hr "TV Movie" or at the time DVD releases were a thing, so could have worked, but as said, they wasted zero time destroying the sets, props, etc.

UPN wasn't a good home, they took 2 great concepts, Voyager, trapped 70,000 light years away, and Enterprise, showing a more primitive prequal, and nerfed each of them by sticking to a set style. Voyager could have been an excellent serialized show, but there reset at the end of the episode ruined it. and Enterprise, they wanted more of the same, so they didn't take any risks.
There's always hope though,

 

[FederationHistorian]

That's not how Hollywood works. They still have contracts, production and guild rules.

In any case, it wasn’t some random fan film, and the edicts around fan productions did not exist until 2016 anyways. From what I can tell, the campaign wasn’t breaking any rules. It was just Paramount not wanting external input they did not ask for. Something that tends to be the case when it comes to Star Trek, at least.

When it comes to the Save Enterprise campaign, they had investors from the aerospace industry, multiple Canadian producers and British satellite service SkyOne. Now Sky One doesn’t exist anymore, having shut down in 2021 and been replaced by Sky Max, but it tended to air many popular American shows, including TNG, DS9 and VOY. So, their interest in producing ENT S5 should have been taken up, as I don’t think they’d back a loser if it was one. But the offer and interest was still there, at least internationally. A tv movie or straight to DVD movie could have been made that showed what an S5 could have been like. Not to mention that tv movie could have been bundled with the ENT DVDs, and thus made more money.

Then there's this interesting quote from the link Dukhat shared:

"When asked about a rumor that the studio had been quietly planning since the middle of season two on ceasing production after season four, an executive involved with Enterprise said they couldn't comment specifically on that rumor but that it was 'very likely,'" IGN reported.

If that’s the case, then there was no hope for this show up to two years before its cancellation. The fix was in for ENT.

 

[fireproof78]

In any case, it wasn’t some random fan film, and the edicts around fan productions did not exist until 2016 anyways. From what I can tell, the campaign wasn’t breaking any rules. It was just Paramount not wanting external input they did not ask for. Something that tends to be the case when it comes to Star Trek, at least.

Who said anything about breaking rules? Just that rules exist in how Hollywood studios take in money, and how they can produce a show which involves hiring writers, a production manager for overseeing the funds, as well as contracts for receiving funds from the public, since there has to be a paper trail. It's not as simple as driving up, dumping money and saying "Hey, CBS, make this!"

If that’s the case, then there was no hope for this show up to two years before its cancellation. The fix was in for ENT.

The ratings spelled that out.