Did Enterprise fandom dissipate exceptionally thoroughly?

[Dukhat]

What would have made Enterprise a "legimate" prequel?

I dunno...perhaps making something like how Spock descibed the era in "Balance of Terror?"

SPOCK: As you may recall from your histories, this conflict was fought, by our standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels which allowed no quarter, no captives. Nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication. Therefore, no human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other.

Constantly referring to concepts from newer shows can be immersion breaking, I get that.

Though I suppose for me such annoyance would be more in the direction of 'phase pistols' instead of 'phasers', 'photonic torpedoes' instead of 'photon torpedoes', 'polarize the hull plating' instead of 'raise shields', etc. ...

That was ENT's problem: There was little to no worldbuilding. They just took concepts that already existed and slightly tweaked their names. And honestly, how could they worldbuild when the show started immediately after VOY ended?

 

[Finn]

Yeah. I thought they should have gone with cockpits and ladders, with buttons, levers as controls. But I guess TPTB decided people wouldn't watch it and wanted a TNG-equse prequel. They don't really give an damn about what the fans think they should do.


BTW, I found that line of Spock a bit BS. Atomic weapons?

 

[Dukhat]

And yet a show like nuBSG had much more primitive technology than ENT and people watched that. (edit: that was a diss on UPN, not your response.)

And would you have found Spock's line BS if he had said 'nuclear' instead of 'atomic?' Because they mean the same thing, only one is '60's era terminology. nuBSG had nukes too.

 

[Finn]

^Yes. I beleve they haven't pinned in the time period at the time, as some episodes implied TOS was set well further into the future than the 23rd, the idea of atomic or nuclear weapons a century earlier seemed a bit silly.

And for nuBSG, aside from lack of transporters and wait time for jumps (or whatever it was called as I was a bit less of a casual viewer compared to trek), it didn't seem that different.

 

[Dukhat]

^Yes. I beleve they haven't pinned in the time period at the time, as some episodes implied TOS was set well further into the future than the 23rd, the idea of atomic or nuclear weapons a century earlier seemed a bit silly.

Yes, but by the time of ENT, they had pinned down that period of time, hence why I quoted Spock's lines when you asked me what I thought a more realistic prequel to TOS should be.

And for nuBSG, aside from lack of transporters and wait time for jumps (or whatever it was called as I was a bit less of a casual viewer compared to trek), it didn't seem that different.

If you don't see the massive differences between nuBSG and ENT, I'm not sure what to tell you.

 

[FederationHistorian]

SPOCK: As you may recall from your histories, this conflict was fought, by our standards today, with primitive atomic weapons

And what if ENT was getting to that? Maybe use of atomic weapons was supposed to be a huge moral issue for that era, considering they were only a century removed from the last exchange.

and in primitive space vessels which allowed no quarter, no captives.

That can mean two thing; either small interiors (and the NX class did have a small brig; even in TATV, Riker said that the Ent-D brig was bigger than Archer’s ready room). Or they fight up close. Not kamikaze like as with the Dominion, but close enough.

Nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication.

First contact was radio only. And the NX-01 was never in communication with the drone controllers on Romulus. S4 revealed that everyone is oblivious that Romulans are among them.

Therefore, no human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other.

Spock is only working with Federation records, and thus – as far as we know – does not know that the Romulans do in fact know what humans look like. And if he does know that Romulans know what humans look like, then he’s omitting for a reason.

Plus, Spock is the guy that get the total figures for the world war casualties wrong. Why even believe his interpretation of the Earth-Romulan War? Maybe that's wrong too.

And finally, what if they actually went through with T'Pol being half -Romulan in S5 (imo, if they were going to do that, they should have just made her a full Romulan and reveal her as a Tal Shiar spy.)? Continuity would be messed with again.

 

[Dukhat]

All you are doing is taking Spock's lines out of context from what the writer originally intended, just to justify a show made 35+ years after the fact, by two guys who didn't give a crap about Spock's lines, or TOS in general, and which showed a technology level far in advance of what Spock described. And please don't insult my intelligence by implying that if ENT ended up showing the Romulan War, that it would be anything like how Spock described it.

And Spock didn't get any war casualties wrong. His counts were retconned later by another future production. That is not evidence that he was 'wrong.' That's like saying that everyone gets Kirk's middle initial wrong (even Kirk himself) because it was established to be 'R' in WNMHGB.

 

[Tuskin38]

Nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication.

Yeah but that would have been silly considering we can do that today. It wouldn't have been beliveable.

That was ENT's problem: There was little to no worldbuilding. They just took concepts that already existed and slightly tweaked their names. And honestly, how could they worldbuild when the show started immediately after VOY ended?

The producers wanted to do more to make it different, but the execs at UPN wanted something safe and familiar.

Like apparently they had a guideline that the transporter (or other familiar Trek technology) wasn't allowed to malfunction and kill someone.

 

[Finn]

Yes, but by the time of ENT, they had pinned down that period of time, hence why I quoted Spock's lines when you asked me what I thought a more realistic prequel to TOS should be.



If you don't see the massive differences between nuBSG and ENT, I'm not sure what to tell you.

Alright. Just chill

I mean there are a lot of people who can't tell the difference between star wars and star trek.

 

[Dukhat]

Yeah but that would have been silly considering we can do that today. It wouldn't have been beliveable.

They didn’t have it in nuBSG, and it worked just fine.

Alright. Just chill

I mean there are a lot of people who can't tell the difference between star wars and star trek.

Not the people who are actually watching them.

 

[Finn]

^Seriously, I've seen people who have seen more than a handful of episodes/movies and still confuse the two franchises, even if they are intelligent, all that.

I've seen people struggle to differentiate two things/concepts even if they should be obvious. Like not being able to tell the difference between a wolf and a fox...seriously.

Your definition of "actually watching" varies between people.

 

[Dukhat]

YMMV.

 

[FederationHistorian]

please don't insult my intelligence by implying that if ENT ended up showing the Romulan War, that it would be anything like how Spock described it.

No one knows what it would be like. But people would have likely complained even if it was executed great.

ENT just attracted a great deal of hate and criticism towards them, no matter what they did.

And Spock didn't get any war casualties wrong. His counts were retconned later by another future production. That is not evidence that he was 'wrong.'

But if that can be retconned, why can’t the Romulan War be retconned? Why are Spock’s words taken literally here? Even Khan ruling Earth 200 years prior was retconned to 300 years. As well as the adventures of the USS Enterprise taking place in the 22nd centaury and 27th century before settling on the 23rd century. If anything, its normal to retcon TOS.

I'm not sure why you are getting wound up about it.

 

[Dukhat]

Because once you keep retconning things, then the whole reason why you’re making a prequel becomes moot. You might as well call it a reboot. Re: DSC/SNW.

And wound up? I’ve been perfectly civil in this discussion, unlike some others who feel the need to say stupid things like ‘chill out.’

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

OK, let’s drop this argument now. Don’t force the closure of the thread.

 

[FederationHistorian]

I'm not sure if the above post was necessary, since this “argument” helps to understand why ENT does not have the large fandom of its predecessors.

Perhaps ENT was misbranded as being just a prequel and should have also been acknowledged as a reboot from the beginning. Maybe doing so would have prevented such a sharp drop-off of viewers within two seasons. Being limited to a prequel set high standards that weren’t going to be reached with a showrunner that had never watched TOS.

 

[Sumire]

this “argument” helps to understand why ENT does not have the large fandom of its predecessors.

I apologize, my original post was rather unclear. I rambled too much as I am wont to do. I was not intending to ask why the fandom for Enterprise was not as large as other Trek fandoms but rather why it was not as lasting.

However general Trek fans felt about Enterprise (and I am fully aware the show had a great many detractors) it did have fans during its run. Active fans who created their own bulletin boards, their own fanfic archives for various characters and romantic pairings they supported, their own reviews and essays about the show, as well as fan videos and fan art etc.

My question was why these fans seem to have disappeared. I had to do research to find these old sites and some are gone at this point. It was my unstated hope that I could find where these fans went. I’d like to thank them for their artistry, humor, and hard work. I’d like to tell authors how much I love this particular scene or that particular line. I’d like to be part of a fan community with them.

 

[Farscape One]

I'd bet money that if ENT was marketed as a reboot instead of a prequel, it wouldn't have lasted more than 1 season... 2 at most.

 

[Dukhat]

Perhaps ENT was misbranded as being just a prequel and should have also been acknowledged as a reboot from the beginning. Maybe doing so would have prevented such a sharp drop-off of viewers within two seasons. Being limited to a prequel set high standards that weren’t going to be reached with a showrunner that had never watched TOS.

I don't think that was the problem. Whether UPN stated that ENT was a reboot or took place in the 'prime universe' would not have made things any different, or gotten more people to watch it. As @Farscape One pointed out above me, it might have even made less people watch it. ENT simply suffered from 'franchise fatigue' and retreads of the same tired formula.

I know that Rick Berman wanted to wait a year before premiering ENT (but UPN wanted a show right away), and it's possible that had they waited, things might have improved. They definitely would have had more time to develop the show, get in a batch of new writers, and really pin down where they wanted to go with the premise. But ultimately I think UPN would have just pressured him to make a show NOW. And even had they relented and allowed a year to pass, I still don't think things would have been much better. UPN was the real problem with the show, because of their narrow vision, idiotic decisions, and their unwillingness to take risks. And they certainly would not have cared one iota what universe the show took place in.

 

[Farscape One]

I agree about UPN being the big problem. Their interference on VOYAGER was really noticeable and hamstrung the writers from making it a better show.

(It's still good, but UPN stopped them from being great.)