Did Arturis' race instigate the war between the Borg and Species 8472?

[stardream]

One encounter in the Prime timeline, but another encounter in an alternate timeline in Myriad Universes: Infinity's Prism: Places of Exile by yours truly.

That's probably the only one of your Star Trek books I haven't read. Accidentally got spoiled for the whole plot and decided to give it a pass.

 

[LJones41]

So, in the Season 4 finale Hope and Fear, we meet Arturis, one of the last of his species from an unnamed, hyper-intelligent, extremely advanced race. He is somewhat reminiscent of the Talosians, and might have, under normal circumstances, considered humans to primitive to have contact with. He tracks voyager down, downloads their database, and sets up an elaborate trap for them. He does this, in the name of Vengeance because Janeway's meddling has unwittingly caused the Assimilation of his people by the Borg.

So here's the query:

He makes some very peculiar statements towards the end, when his plan has been somewhat foiled, but he still captures Janeway, his most important target.

Scene:
Janeway- ls this what your people do? Prey on innocent ships?
Arturis- "Innocent" Typical of Captain Janeway....self- righteous.
Janeway- If l've offended you or your people in some way, please tell me.
Arturis- Diplomacy, Captain? Your diplomacy destroyed my world!
Janeway- What? What are you saying?
Arturis- You negotiated an agreement with the Borg collective...
safe passage through their space, and in return,
you helped them defeat one of their enemies.
Seven of Nine- Species 8472.
Arturis- In your colorful language, yes....Species 8472.
Did it ever occur to you that there were those of us
in the Delta Quadrant with a vested interest in that war?
Victory would have meant annihilation of the Borg,
but you couldn't see beyond the bow of your own ship!
Janeway- In my estimation, Species 8472 posed a greater threat than the Borg.
Arturis- Who were you to make that decision!? a stranger to this Quadrant?
Janeway- There wasn't exactly time to take a poll. l had to act quickly.
Arturis- My people managed to elude the Borg for centuries--
outwitting them, always one step ahead.
But in recent years, the Borg began to weaken our defenses.
They were closing in, and Species 8472 was our last hope to defeat them.
You took that away from us!
The outer colonies were the first to fall--
23 in a matter of hours.
Our sentry vessels tossed aside.
No defense against the storm.
And by the time they had surrounded our star system--
hundreds of cubes--

So,

• Arturis' people managed to keep their territory hidden from the Borg for centuries.
• The Borg had a keen interest in assimilating them for centuries
• The Borg were close to discovering a way to assimilate them
• The Borg then discover fluidic space and so on
• A war breaks out between Species 8472 and the Borg
• Species 8472 was Arturis' people's last hope to annihilate the Borg

From all this I gather that these aliens lured the Borg into seeking out 8472 and instigated the conflict to wipe out the Borg once and for all.

Do you agree? Yes or No

No, I disagree. It was the Borg who instigated the war against Species 8472 and discovered that they had bit off more than they could chew.

I think it's a pretty standard jingoistic comment that is common as muck to make between two hostile parties with no deeper meaning.

I agree.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Considering how vast Borg space is, and how many thousands of other civilizations must abut on their borders and therefore be under Borg attack, it is statistically inevitable that some number of them would be on the verge of defeat at any given time.

And for all of those races who were wiped out by the Borg because of Janeway's interference, I'd have a hard time blaming any survivors (Arturis included) for being just a little bit PISSED because of it.

 

[KelisThePoet]

How much did Species 8472 know about the galaxy when they decided they needed to purge it? The way I understand/remember it, the Borg instigated contact with fluidic space (I imagine they discovered how to go there, or more likely, assimilated someone who had discovered how to go there but had never actually gone). When Species 8472 fought back and took the offensive, they emerged in Borg space. Then Voyager allied with the Borg against them. So the picture Species 8472 gets of the galaxy is of space dominated by merciless, expansionist automata and some other creatures that, astonishingly enough, seem allied with this terrible menace. No wonder they thought this galaxy needed to be purged of all life. Once they got a broader view of what this galaxy contained, they'd probably change their minds.

 

[Christopher]

The thing, though, is that Species 8472 wasn't an ordinary civilization of the sort we're used to. They inhabited a fluidic universe where their life was the only kind that existed -- although of course they had bioships and such, so the way I interpreted that in Places of Exile was that fluidic space is basically one big collective organism and 8472 are its immune system. So to their way of thinking, any intrusion from another universe was an infection to be purged. They had no experience with any such concepts as diplomacy or negotiation or cooperation with other civilizations. It's actually impressive that they were able to broaden their worldview enough to consider such things in "In the Flesh."

 

[Voth commando1]

The thing, though, is that Species 8472 wasn't an ordinary civilization of the sort we're used to. They inhabited a fluidic universe where their life was the only kind that existed -- although of course they had bioships and such, so the way I interpreted that in Places of Exile was that fluidic space is basically one big collective organism and 8472 are its immune system. So to their way of thinking, any intrusion from another universe was an infection to be purged. They had no experience with any such concepts as diplomacy or negotiation or cooperation with other civilizations. It's actually impressive that they were able to broaden their worldview enough to consider such things in "In the Flesh."

To those who say Voyager neutered Species 8472 in "In the Flesh" recall Boothby(8472) saying he wasn't sure if he could convince his superiors of the federation's sincerity. Even then there was no guarantee they would have negotiated anyway.

Back to the original topic no Arturis people did not instigate the conflict, they had resisted Borg attempts at conquest through and through. I imagine species 8472 smashing through the Borg gave them breathing space and the hope that the Borg were on their last legs. Once Janeway made her pact and the modified nanoprobes designed. Species 8472 were driven back and the Borg returned to assimilating those they were in the process of assimilating.

Arturis is angry basically that selfish foreigners or wayfarers-people without any stake in the Borg-Species 8472 conflict had the gall and arrogance to interfere and cause a great deal of suffering in the process.

 

[Christopher]

To those who say Voyager neutered Species 8472 in "In the Flesh" recall Boothby(8472) saying he wasn't sure if he could convince his superiors of the federation's sincerity. Even then there was no guarantee they would have negotiated anyway.

Which is why I said "to even consider such things" instead of "to completely and wholeheartedly embrace such things."

Arturis is angry basically that selfish foreigners or wayfarers-people without any stake in the Borg-Species 8472 conflict had the gall and arrogance to interfere and cause a great deal of suffering in the process.

Yes, exactly.

 

[KelisThePoet]

The thing, though, is that Species 8472 wasn't an ordinary civilization of the sort we're used to. They inhabited a fluidic universe where their life was the only kind that existed

. . . which would only compound their confusion upon entering Borg space. They could easily assume that this was a Borg universe, completely inhabited by Borg and a few of their satellite allies (symbiotic organisms), as that would be analogous to their fluidic universe that supports one primary kind of life and some other symbiotic structures.

 

[KelisThePoet]

As to the question of whether and when Voyager made Species 8472 sympathetic (and whether this is a problem), I'd argue it started long before "In the Flesh," as early as "Prey," and arguably by the second half of "Scorpion," the story that introduced them.

 

[Prax]

Back to the original topic no Arturis people did not instigate the conflict, they had resisted Borg attempts at conquest through and through. I imagine species 8472 smashing through the Borg gave them breathing space and the hope that the Borg were on their last legs. Once Janeway made her pact and the modified nanoprobes designed. Species 8472 were driven back and the Borg returned to assimilating those they were in the process of assimilating.

Arturis is angry basically that selfish foreigners or wayfarers-people without any stake in the Borg-Species 8472 conflict had the gall and arrogance to interfere and cause a great deal of suffering in the process.

We can't possibly make such a definitive determination. And there's no cause to be so dismissive. These are speculative "fan theories" after all.

Henceforth we shall refer to them as species 116(I'm getting frustrated typing "Arturis' people" over and over on my tiny phone screen)

Here's some items of ponderance:

• How did species 116 keep their whole territory hidden from the borg for so many centuries?
• Just how advanced are species 116? How intelligent?
• Are Species 116 completely benevolent? Surely they were desperate.
• What was Species 116's plan to defend/avoid against the borg THIS time? What were they doing to save their civilization?
• How did the Borg happen to learn of the existence of Species 8472, and their existence? (Species 116 knew of them btw. In fact, they seemed quite well aware of what was going on inside borg space)

On a somewhat unrelated note. Icheb's parents, (and I assume the whole community knew)in their effort to protect their homes from the borg, created Icheb with a virus that, when assimilated, would destroy the borg. The sent him in a ship with a fake warp signature as bait to lure the borg to their own destruction.

 

[Catarina]

"The weak shall perish." What did you think that meant?

Personally, I thought it was the puffing from one alien not the collective thought of 8472. Exaggeration and posturing isn't dead in the 24th century. Doesn't make me correct but that is my take from it.

 

[Anwar]

That guy was just blaming Voyager because he needed a Scapegoat. The 8472 would've probably killed his people off once they got to them, but since they didn't he figured his best chance at wiping out the Borg was gone and he couldn't see past that.

Of course, his people had evaded the Borg for centuries and apparently they never considered sharing the technology that allowed them to do so with anyone else thus creating an Anti-Borg alliance that could fight back...