Did Arturis' race instigate the war between the Borg and Species 8472?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Prax, Jan 9, 2017.

  1. Prax

    Prax Commodore Fleet Captain

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    [​IMG]

    So, in the Season 4 finale Hope and Fear, we meet Arturis, one of the last of his species from an unnamed, hyper-intelligent, extremely advanced race. He is somewhat reminiscent of the Talosians, and might have, under normal circumstances, considered humans to primitive to have contact with. He tracks voyager down, downloads their database, and sets up an elaborate trap for them. He does this, in the name of Vengeance because Janeway's meddling has unwittingly caused the Assimilation of his people by the Borg.

    So here's the query:

    He makes some very peculiar statements towards the end, when his plan has been somewhat foiled, but he still captures Janeway, his most important target.

    Scene:
    [SIZE=4]Janeway- ls this what your people do? Prey on innocent ships?[/SIZE]
    Arturis- "Innocent" Typical of Captain Janeway....self- righteous.
    Janeway- If l've offended you or your people in some way, please tell me.
    Arturis- Diplomacy, Captain? Your diplomacy destroyed my world!
    Janeway- What? What are you saying?
    Arturis- You negotiated an agreement with the Borg collective...
    safe passage through their space, and in return,
    you helped them defeat one of their enemies.
    Seven of Nine- Species 8472.
    Arturis- In your colorful language, yes....Species 8472.
    Did it ever occur to you that there were those of us
    in the Delta Quadrant with a vested interest in that war?
    Victory would have meant annihilation of the Borg,
    but you couldn't see beyond the bow of your own ship!
    Janeway- In my estimation, Species 8472 posed a greater threat than the Borg.
    Arturis- Who were you to make that decision!? a stranger to this Quadrant?
    Janeway- There wasn't exactly time to take a poll. l had to act quickly.
    Arturis- My people managed to elude the Borg for centuries--
    outwitting them, always one step ahead.

    But in recent years, the Borg began to weaken our defenses.
    They were closing in, and Species 8472 was our last hope to defeat them.
    You took that away from us!
    The outer colonies were the first to fall--
    23 in a matter of hours.
    Our sentry vessels tossed aside.
    No defense against the storm.
    And by the time they had surrounded our star system--
    hundreds of cubes--

    [SIZE=4]
    So, [/SIZE]
    • [SIZE=4]Arturis' people managed to keep their territory hidden from the Borg for centuries. [/SIZE]
    • [SIZE=4]The Borg had a keen interest in assimilating them for centuries[/SIZE]
    • [SIZE=4]The Borg were close to discovering a way to assimilate them[/SIZE]
    • [SIZE=4]The Borg then discover fluidic space and so on[/SIZE]
    • [SIZE=4]A war breaks out between Species 8472 and the Borg[/SIZE]
    • [SIZE=4]Species 8472 was Arturis' people's last hope to annihilate the Borg[/SIZE]
    From all this I gather that these aliens lured the Borg into seeking out 8472 and instigated the conflict to wipe out the Borg once and for all.

    Do you agree? Yes or No
     
  2. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    No. Correlation does not imply causation. Borg space is huge; at any given time, they're probably attempting to assimilate hundreds of other starfaring civilizations -- some of which fall quickly, some of which would have been holding out for a long time, and some of which would be close to their final defeat at any particular moment in time. There's nothing unique about Arturis's people; the defeat of the Borg by Species 8472 would've been the last hope for hundreds of civilizations -- or so they may have thought, since of course 8472 would've invaded our galaxy and eradicated all life if not for the treaty Janeway made later.
     
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  3. Prax

    Prax Commodore Fleet Captain

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    Are you saying that he's not being honest? This premise is a possible implication based primarily on his dialogue, not on apparent coincidences of the sequence of events.
     
  4. Nerubian

    Nerubian Ensign Red Shirt

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    I really dont think Species 8472 had any interest in wiping out the galaxy. It would be a collossal undertaking even for an advanced race like them, the milky way is enormous. Not only that but uniting thousands of space faring species against you in a fight for extinction would probably result in them genociding you first by sheer advantage of numbers, resources and desperate will to survive.

    That was inferred by one person telepathically picking up the thoughts of a very alien race/mind. Then that truly awful episode where they were completely ruined and turned into humans shows them as a lot more chill.

    They probably did want to destroy the Borg - for invading their realm and declaring war on them first.
     
  5. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    There is nothing in Arturis's lines suggesting that his people instigated the conflict, just that they had a stake in it. He only said they had a vested interest in the war and that 8472 was their last hope for the Borg's defeat. The same would go for any of the hundreds or thousands of other civilizations in the Delta Quadrant and beyond who were under assault from the Borg. All that Arturis is saying is that, by helping the Borg defeat Species 8472, Janeway allowed the Borg to continue destroying other civilizations, including his own. He's saying that she placed her interests above theirs and thus condemned them.

    And part of my point is that there is no coincidence. Considering how vast Borg space is, and how many thousands of other civilizations must abut on their borders and therefore be under Borg attack, it is statistically inevitable that some number of them would be on the verge of defeat at any given time. It would only be a coincidence if it were unlikely, and it's the opposite of unlikely.
     
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  6. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

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    As as been mentioned already Arturis's people didn't start the war they just had an interest in it going a particular way-the complete destruction of the Borg.

    Arturis bitterness and hostility towards Janeway and Voyager is that hey these people from the other side of the Galaxy make an alliance to get through my enemy's space defeat my enemy's enemy who just so happened to be about to destroy my enemy. All for the selfish reason of expediting their trip home. They didn't take local species opinions into account. They didn't care about the consequences just their own necks and happiness. How dare these alien interlopers put their self important desire to reach a world 70,000 light years away ahead of people who had real stake in the space they were criscrossing. And the war they were hedging their survival on.
     
  7. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    ^Yup. Imagine, say, how the Ocampa would've felt if, instead of protecting them from the Kazon, Voyager had allied with the Kazon and helped them defeat an enemy trying to destroy them, in exchange for the Kazon's help in capturing the Caretaker's Array and using it to send them home. Janeway's choice in "Scorpion" was pretty much the moral opposite of her choice in "Caretaker."
     
  8. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

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    Human beings are irrational creatures and that's part of the reason I don't have much an issue with Janeway's characterization she can act impulsively or calculatingly.

    Oh and the Ocampa are cute space elves so that probably influenced her decision making.
     
  9. Dr. San Guinary

    Dr. San Guinary Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    "The weak shall perish." What did you think that meant?
     
  10. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

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    They would kill everything, or maybe to reconcile that depiction with the In the Flesh episode that may have been a chant or something a war cry if you well.
     
  11. Several episodes of awful characterization, bad acting and horrible dialog in Star Trek Online. :D
     
  12. Dr. San Guinary

    Dr. San Guinary Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ^ Never having dealt with STO, I can't testify to that...so what you're saying is that STO dispensed with the "good 8472" that was later introduced on the show, and went with the original badass version? 'Cause that version of 8472 definitely seemed like it wanted to wipe everything else out.
     
  13. Indeed, they took it to the MMO "retardily rabid genocidal mooks" level -- of course it was because of *spoiler alert* tampering by the Iconians and the situation was dealt with blah blah blah and we haven't heard from them since.
     
  14. Nerubian

    Nerubian Ensign Red Shirt

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    I think it's a pretty standard jingoistic comment that is common as muck to make between two hostile parties with no deeper meaning.
     
  15. stardream

    stardream Commodore Commodore

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    I thought Kes was just channeling thoughts that came through in the heat of battle...and for the record, I liked the way the novel-verse dealt with 8472 better than the way STO did.
     
  16. Nerubian

    Nerubian Ensign Red Shirt

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    What did the novelverse do with 8472?.
     
  17. stardream

    stardream Commodore Commodore

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    The had ONE encounter with Voyager in the re-launch series. They were much the same as they were in the series 'In the Flesh.' I don't want to go into detail or spoil because the storyline is so involved so let's just say they kept their promise to stay in their own corner of the universe.
     
  18. Sophie74656

    Sophie74656 Commodore Commodore

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    My take on what happened. I think that the Borg assimilated someone who had encountered 8472 so now the Borg know about them and are intrigued by them. They set out to try to assimilate them, it went wrong and the war started. His people were just hoping that war would wipe out the Borg and 8472 would go back where they came from
     
  19. Dr. San Guinary

    Dr. San Guinary Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Well, that's STO for ya. Everything in it is geared for the bloodiest war imaginable, so it makes some warped bit of sense that they'd do this with 8472.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2017
  20. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    One encounter in the Prime timeline, but another encounter in an alternate timeline in Myriad Universes: Infinity's Prism: Places of Exile by yours truly.