Did Anyone Else LOL When the Jem Shipped Killed Red Squad

[Sadara]

Red Squad is a bad idea to start with. Theoretically it sounds good. Hey, we're going to reward our best cadets with x, y, z; but unfortunately what really happens is you're singling out a number of cadets and telling them their sh*t don't stink and they're above everyone else. The result is their snobby, nasty attitudes and early space graves. Red Squad is a disservice to all cadets.

 

[Capt_Pickirk]

Poor Nog Always felt Valiant was Starship Troopers 90210 minus the bugs and humour...

... and common sense.

 

[apollo1984]

Firstly I am pretty sure Nog did not graduate the academy, he went to DS9 on field study and got a field promotion to Ensign as Chief O Brian comments about Starfleet getting desperate enough to promote him..

Secondly whether he tried to assume command or not does not make a difference in my mind as I am not sure the Red Squad would accept Nog as their CO they would most likly stick him in the brig and carry on regardless.

 

[MacLeod]

The closest example I can think of:

Chief Engineer Logan arrives on the bridge, and, hearing La Forge's plan of staying in orbit to try and rescue the away team, he demands that La Forge relinquish his command to him, a higher-ranking officer. However, La Forge is more interested in trying to destroy the weapon, so he ignores Logan, and tells Worf to compute the predicted attack path of the weapon, firing in the dark. Logan continues to interfere, and La Forge sends him back to engineering, saying he's in command until relieved by either Commander Riker or Captain Picard.

The Arsenal of Freedom (episode)


http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Arsenal_of_Freedom_(episode)

TNG, Episode 1x21

I think the difference in that situation, Picard and Riker well still alive, rather than dead as in the case with the Valiant crew.

Yes Nog graduated from the academy early, but he still graduated whilst non of Red squad had graduated from the academy. It all depends on how Starfleet regonises field promotions. i.e Do they offically hold that rank, or only hold it subject to HQ approval. So if HQ hasn't approved it they have to defer to a superior ranked officer.

It's reasonable to assume that when Wesley was given the field promotion to Ensign, HQ approved it.

Just remember rank isn't always everthing within in Starfleet, look at Chief O'Brien, he holds a high NCO rank but the post of Chief of Operations (Which seems to be the equivalent of Chief Engineer). Do you really think that all the officers we have seen in the Operations division. Say No Chief?

 

[Nightdiamond]

It was hard to be sympathetic to them. Almost all of the crew of red squad were written to be jerks or bitches from the very start.

They did good when they saved Jake and Nog, but as soon as we got to the bridge scene mehhh -snob alert, bitch alert, jerk alert all over the place.

How can anyone miss that glare from that...pleasant young cadet?

Even the Vulcan crew member -who should have been the other voice of reason, went along with it all.

The only sympathetic character was the "chief petty officer" because she acted relatively normal.

I don't think Nog would have got farther than the brig if he tried to pull rank, although technically he was a lieutenant and they were something like N.C.O s.

 

[Snaploud]

This episode always seemed strange to me. We're supposed to believe a) that cadets were allowed to circumnavigate the entire Federation (including borders between unfriendly powers), b) that the cadets didn't have standing orders to return home if all the officers died, and c) that such a ship would be sent orders to perform various missions once the war began (rather than orders to get back home). Edit: Although, that last point might not stand as Worf says the Valiant was officially listed as missing, so it could either be that Watters made up the gathering-intelligence mission or that somebody in Starfleet was purposely using a "lost" ship for missions.

 

[ALF]

I guess I should have.
Wasted chances.

 

[Sadara]

About the Vulcan who should have been the other voice of reason, I wondered about that too and I agree. You'd think he'd have objected to taking on the jem'hadar warship because it was sheer lunacy. On the other hand though, I'm actually not all that surprised he went along with the dumb*ssery. Vulcans seem to have a naturally built it superiority complex and can act quite condescending and snobby at times. Most just aren't as overt about it as say, Captain Solok. The Vulcan was right at home with Red Squad imo.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

That was the conclusion I ultimately came to as well--the Vulcan felt "justified" as part of the "elite," above all those lesser individuals.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I did notice that Vulcan did not chant along with the others, but still stood silently besides everyone else.

The way Vulcans are so dedicated to logic, I always thought the first thing out his mouth would be "this plan is extremely illogical".

It was like he was compliantly agreeing with the other cadets.

 

[ClayHefner]

The plan sounded logical. It simply didn't work out.

 

[flemm]

Second, they honestly thought that the audience wouldn't accept Kira not single-handedly ending it all.

LoL, they were right. Though, honestly, it is funny to think how that would have gone down.

I wasn't impressed with this episode the first time I saw it, but it has grown on me a bit since.

 

[Sadara]

The plan sounded logical. It simply didn't work out.

I don't know. Jake thought the plan sounded suicidal. Just because something is logical doesn't mean it's always a good idea.

 

[Nightdiamond]

B.T.W, I noticed there were two Vulcans in the crowd.

They could have gotten the tech information on the ship back safely to Starfleet and been hailed as heroes.

The charming polite, first officer tried to prevent Jake from even saying anything.

Starfleet Academy really messed up somewhere when they trained them.

I also noticed that the plan was right out of Star Wars . Try to hit a special, isolated part of the ship with a torpedo and the much larger ship will explode.

They managed to launch one, but it didn't work, just like in the movie.

 

[Sadara]

B.T.W, I noticed there were two Vulcans in the crowd.

They could have gotten the tech information on the ship back safely to Starfleet and been hailed as heroes.

The charming polite, first officer tried to prevent Jake from even saying anything.

Starfleet Academy really messed up somewhere when they trained them.

I also noticed that the plan was right out of Star Wars . Try to hit a special, isolated part of the ship with a torpedo and the much larger ship will explode.

They managed to launch one, but it didn't work, just like in the movie.

The part where Starfleet messed up was by telling these kids they were above everyone else and then treating them that way. Not only did these kids eventually begin to believe their own hype, but they also began to believe they were invincible and unassailable. This led to the tragedy in the episode.

I'd have to watch the episode again because it's been a while, but I'm pretty sure those cadets were on silent running on the deceased captain's authority. This is just me, but if my captain just died and I was now in command, but hadn't fully graduated the Academy, I might be inclined to let Starfleet know. Sure, it would probably mean heading for a starbase to pick up a new commanding officer with more dangerous mission hours clocked than Wesley Crusher, but hey... Just sayin'.

 

[Cyke101]

Well, originally it was intended for Jake to be the one taken in and for Kira to be the voice of reason. They changed it to Jake and Nog for a couple of reasons. First, they felt that it would work better for Nog to be taken in instead of Jake. Second, they honestly thought that the audience wouldn't accept Kira not single-handedly ending it all.

That's such a strange way of realizing the strength of a main character though -- that you can't have her in there because she herself, in some kind of metafictional way, would tear your script apart before you could say "GO!"

Also, you beat me to the punch. I wanted to repeat the story! Kira probably would have smashed Watters' head against the command console -- repeatedly.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

You know what might actually have been kind of interesting? O'Brien. Think about it...with O'Brien being enlisted, those cadets MIGHT outrank him. So it would be a genuine struggle between obeying "superiors" and doing the right thing that maturity and experience would tell him to do. Obviously he wouldn't have bought the Red Squad hype, so it would be a different kind of drama. But at least it would make SENSE.

 

[Capt_Pickirk]

O'brien could've worked...

Plus it could be another excuse for them to hurt him in some way. The DS9 writers always loved to hurt o'brien

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Is it possible that Red Squad could have been part of Admiral Leyton's conspiracy? Think about it. They're exactly the kind of thugs Leyton would want on his side...

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

O'brien could've worked...

Plus it could be another excuse for them to hurt him in some way. The DS9 writers always loved to hurt o'brien

I think it would've been an interesting "break from tradition" for him not to get hurt. To really come off showing a lot of strength in a different way.