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Did Anyone Else LOL When the Jem Shipped Killed Red Squad

I did find it kind of funny. They are all like "WE DID IT!" when they think they killed the battleship. Then it emerges from the explosion looking all badass and they are like "Oh, shit" before getting absolutely owned by the battleship.

One of the best scenes in Star Trek ever. :rommie:
 
I did find it kind of funny. They are all like "WE DID IT!" when they think they killed the battleship. Then it emerges from the explosion looking all badass and they are like "Oh, shit" before getting absolutely owned by the battleship.

One of the best scenes in Star Trek ever. :rommie:

My first thoughts were "Ho-hum, another big Hollywood explosion from another Star Wars-type victory -- ooohHOLYCRAP the ship's still there!!!"

The episode's quality is debatable, but that was a *great* subversion of a series of cliches.

Is it possible that Red Squad could have been part of Admiral Leyton's conspiracy? Think about it. They're exactly the kind of thugs Leyton would want on his side...

I thought they were the very same. A group of Red Squad were the ones who sabotaged a global power generator that allowed for Leyton to attempt his coup, and Cadet Shepherd, the helmsman for the Valiant, was also in Paradise Lost.
 
I did find it kind of funny. They are all like "WE DID IT!" when they think they killed the battleship. Then it emerges from the explosion looking all badass and they are like "Oh, shit" before getting absolutely owned by the battleship.

One of the best scenes in Star Trek ever. :rommie:

ok, I have to admit, I grinned and was like "Are they going to get owned?"

Yes they where. :bolian:
 
I found the ending to "Valiant" to be very tragic.

Such a sad waste of a perfectly good starship.

Robert
 
You know what might actually have been kind of interesting? O'Brien. Think about it...with O'Brien being enlisted, those cadets MIGHT outrank him.

Not really most senior NCO's (Non-Commissioned Officers) are able to override Officers especially in combat situations in the majority of the militaries of the world. Different militaries different rules of course, but for the most part, a NCO has earned the right to take command based on his experience, and most of the time, the NCO in charged of a unit, can take over command from the Officer in charged when required.

Plus a SNCO is still a officer, while a Cadet is still just a Officer Candidate.

Based on the fact O'Brien is treated as a senior staff member even though he is a Senior NCO in the series leads me to believe that the same line of thinking applies to Star Fleet.

Jim
 
In most military, NCOs and other enlisted personnel outrank cadets, untill they are commissioned. NCOs are by the book outranked by even the lowest officer, but NCO's have a lot of pull on how things are done, and depending on the officer, many officers will listen to a NCO for there opinion if time allows.

To put it in perspective, Sisko might make the choice to mine the wormhole, but it going to be his NCO's like O'Brien that will make it so. However starfleet as shown is a very officer heavy organization, but perhaps starships have a lot of officers and starbases are full of Able-Spaceman/women who overhaul ships, as most roles on a starship will require at least 4 years of college. (And in TNG the other roles are handled by Civilians..contractors perhaps ;) )
 
The big thing is, like O'Brien who was a combat officer in the Federation-Cardassian War till he became a technician on the USS Enterprise, is that we really don't see the ground forces of Star Fleet in Star Trek. We see them here and there, such as "Nor the Battle or the Strong" in DS9. But still a rare sight, which could help explain why NCO's are not as shown as much on Star Ships.

You see the lower ranking crewmen and the like onboard the ships when they do repairs, and help with Engineering tasks. (Remember when the Warp Core was having issues in the Wrath of Khan, when one of his lower ranking crewmen who died after being given "the word" after the rest of the trainees ran). But they are for the most part skilled in something about ship functions, which tends to indicate training programs similar to current technician (Specialist) level training in militaries today.

When NCO's who are technically trained in militaries today, as they gain more experience they are often given additional training, to gain bachelor degrees in their field of work (Mechanical/Electrical Engineering) and are promoted to officer ranks. Which also explains why SNCOs in star ships are rare, as by the time they get the experience needed to be in command they are probably upgraded and promoted, as it would be a waste to allow technically inclined people to stay into lower support roles.

As for O'Brien being so old, and gaining the technical level training so long into his career, its unlikely that he would, and that they'd bother offering him Officer training. But they did end up giving him his own space station to play with, which shows that Star Fleet still considers senior NCO's as valuable officers even without a commission.

So I still think O'Brien will be able to take command of the ship from Red Squad, while he laughed at them like I did.

Jim
 
Actually I got some on screen evidence, that NCO's can at least have equivalent ranks of Commissioned Officers.

In TNG, O'Brien was a Chief Petty Officer, is wearing 2 tabs like a Lt. and gets called both Chief and Lt interchangeably. Which might mean a SCPO like O'Brien in DS9 might have the same over all responsibilities as a Lt Commander.

Which would explain why he was treated as Sr Officer Staff by Sisko in the series.

So Red Squad would have been dragged home kicking and screaming like little kids perhaps. :techman:

Jim
 
There is a technicality; The captain gave a "battlefield promotion" to Watters which meant he got promoted the same way Nog did.

The big problem is that Watters appears to have made himself 'captain', and promoted some other cadets to officer ranks.
Captain Ramirez couldn't promote Watters to the same rank as himself.

So I think the big promotion handouts by Watters was B.S and invalid.

I think Starfleet did one of the most foolish things they could do; give a bunch of arrogant, spoiled brats a promotion to officers with a ship of their own.

Don't military cadets already have the rank of noncoms, until they graduate, and then become officers?
 
"l was given command of this vessel by the late Captain Ramirez. Using that authority, l have promoted other Red Squad members as needed."

He doesn't mention anything about a battlefield promotion. Though, I guess it's somewhat assumed by his taking of a higher rank. I don't remember what rank was put on his collar, but he would be referred to as "captain" regardless of rank.

Edit: I agree that the captain would not be able to promote somebody to his own rank.
 
Even if Captain Ramirez legitimately transferred command to Watters, Nog is still his superior officer. He could, justifiably, order Watters to relinquish his command.
 
Again, if Saavik was a Lieutenant while still at the academy, Watters could also have been.
And given RedSquad are supposed to be Starfleet Academy's best, it's likely.
 
I think Starfleet did one of the most foolish things they could do; give a bunch of arrogant, spoiled brats a promotion to officers with a ship of their own.
[cough] *** End of Star Trek Eleven *** [/cough]

Don't military cadets already have the rank of noncoms, until they graduate, and then become officers?
Not in the US military, cadets hold no authority. A senior naval cadet at Annapolis the day before getting his/her commission can not legally issue an order to any enlisted personnel, and the enlisted personnel might face charges if they were to carry out the attempted order.

In other militaries, cadets might hold a different status.

Again, if Saavik was a Lieutenant while still at the academy, Watters could also have been.
It is unclear if Savvik was a cadet in TWOK, although from Kirk's statement at least some of the people in the simulator were. She could have been a commissioned officer at the academy receiving additional training. Perhaps something like the British Navy perisher course for submarine command officers.

:)
 
Many military Academy's in the world take officers for command training as they progress in rank.

Jim
 
I looked over the episode again-when they first meet, Watters says the Captain gave him a battlefield commission.

Then using his authority, he actually promoted other cadets to officers.

That smells fishy from the very start.

At best, Watters would been made an Ensign or maybe Lt Jr Grd.

If he was actually field promoted to Captain, then after returning to the Federation, he would actually be in command of a large number of lower ranking officers, some much older and more experienced than him-like the then Cmder Riker.

He wore the captain's insignia so he really considered himself a captain. He could have just as easily assumed command being an ensign.

Maybe a little power hungry or rewriting history, huh?
 
You know, I honestly expected better from Starfleet cadets, I just don't know how a raging egomaniac like Watters would even be admitted to Starfleet Academy let alone be part of Red Squad. I didn't LOL so much as say to myself "a foolish death for foolish cadets."
 
I think that's what the Academy is for: to weed out the crumbs (or crud, whichever ending for the letters cru fits your fancy) from the ranks.
 
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