Destiny trilogy - speculations

[Allyn Gibson]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

That said, if there is anything in the books that includes hundreds of Federation starships being annihilated by the Borg and then our heros saving the day when all else has failed...then I will be royally pissed off.

If you generalize that statement, you've just dismissed a fuckload of literature, Dayton3.

For instance, I could revise that to say "if there is anything in The Lord of the Rings that includes hundreds of Gondorian soldiers being annihilated by Mordor's armies, and then our heroes saving the day when all else has failed..." and describe, pretty accurately, the ending of The Return of the King; the Gondorian attack on the Black Gates was a futile, suicidal gesture. Mordor couldn't be defeated by force of arms. And our heroes -- Frodo and Sam -- save the day when all else has failed.

What you don't realize, Dayton3, is that, in broad outline, that's a common story element. "Things get worse" is a phrase writers tell themselves all the time. The stakes get higher. The losses get more extreme. And then, when everything else has failed, a hero (or a small band of heroes) finds success.

You can dismiss Destiny on those grounds, Dayton3. That's your choice. But do so cognizent of the fact that you're also dismissing literature in the whole. Study some literary theory, and do yourself a favor.

 

[JAG]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

I think it is better to wait and see what the book is like once its actually printed.

 

[Dayton3]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

That said, if there is anything in the books that includes hundreds of Federation starships being annihilated by the Borg and then our heros saving the day when all else has failed...then I will be royally pissed off.

If you generalize that statement, you've just dismissed a fuckload of literature, Dayton3.

For instance, I could revise that to say "if there is anything in The Lord of the Rings that includes hundreds of Gondorian soldiers being annihilated by Mordor's armies, and then our heroes saving the day when all else has failed..." and describe, pretty accurately, the ending of The Return of the King; the Gondorian attack on the Black Gates was a futile, suicidal gesture. Mordor couldn't be defeated by force of arms. And our heroes -- Frodo and Sam -- save the day when all else has failed.

What you don't realize, Dayton3, is that, in broad outline, that's a common story element. "Things get worse" is a phrase writers tell themselves all the time. The stakes get higher. The losses get more extreme. And then, when everything else has failed, a hero (or a small band of heroes) finds success.

You can dismiss Destiny on those grounds, Dayton3. That's your choice. But do so cognizent of the fact that you're also dismissing literature in the whole. Study some literary theory, and do yourself a favor.

No offense,

But what is your point?

Your argument seems to be that

"you should give the Destiny trilogy a chance even if it has those elements 'because that is the way fiction is written'".

Anyone who needs to study literary theory to enjoy a book probably shouldn't be reading in the first place.

 

[Rabid Trekkie]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

No offense,

But what is your point?

Your argument seems to be that

"you should give the Destiny trilogy a chance even if it has those elements 'because that is the way fiction is written'".

Anyone who needs to study literary theory to enjoy a book probably shouldn't be reading in the first place.

Huh? That's not an example of literary theory, that's a result of reading/watching tv for a long time. The heroes in our fiction are the only ones that can do the job, that's why they are our heroes. And it isn't like this hasn't been seen in Trek before either. In TOS we have a ship full of Vulcans that can't figure out what to do about a giant space amoeba but Kirk and Co. can. In TNG we have Riker devising a plan to beat Locutus after the Borg just took out a fleet of starships. In DS9 Sisko led the fleet in the battle against the Dominion, even though Picard and company are still around somewhere and so Sisko wins the day. And Voyager, well Janeway got them home and that's all there really is to say about that. So even if the main plot of the story is exactly as you describe, what's the big deal? If the heroes don't win that means next year we'll have Star Trek: Borg and the quest to assimilate the rest of the universe. Which while I'm sure these authors could make even that an entertaining read, not really many places you could take that story.

You see, I already know the ending of Destiny. The heroes win. And since we're using that tired old cliche I guess I should just complain on here about how none of the writers are creative enough to come up with a new story.


And all that said, after reading Greater Than the Sum, I am looking forward to Destiny as much as I was the Lord of the Ring movies. And that's a lot.

 

[Dayton3]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Even if the Borg "won" the Star Trek universe could continue (not saying that is my preference)

Say the Borg beat back attempts to stop their invasion of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants (and whereever else).

Say the Borg occupied hundreds and hundreds of planets.

Would Star Trek have to change that much? There are still thousands of other planets left.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Your argument seems to be that

"you should give the Destiny trilogy a chance even if it has those elements 'because that is the way fiction is written'".

No, the argument is that you should give it a chance because it's foolish to assume you can judge something you haven't read yet. Everything else is just deconstructing the invalid arguments you're using to defend that assumption.

Anyway, it's pointless to keep arguing about it. The only thing that can convince you, the only thing that should convince you one way or the other, is reading the actual trilogy. So why don't we all just table the discussion until after Dayton3 has had a chance to read it?

 

[Rabid Trekkie]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Even if the Borg "won" the Star Trek universe could continue (not saying that is my preference)

Say the Borg beat back attempts to stop their invasion of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants (and whereever else).

Say the Borg occupied hundreds and hundreds of planets.

Would Star Trek have to change that much? There are still thousands of other planets left.

Right now there is only one series of books about a non-Federation crew. If the Borg defeat the Federation, the Klingons and the rest won't last much longer. So unless we want nothing but a series of books about the Organians or Telosians or Q, yeah the good guys have to win and win big enough for us to see stories about the Federation continue. And I don't know about everyone else on these boards or in the rest of Trekdom, but even if the tv/films never continue the story of the 24th century, my hope is that the books will take us farther and farther ahead the same way that Star Wars is already setting up a story over a hundred years after Return of the Jedi.

 

[HappyDayRiot]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Say the Borg beat back attempts to stop their invasion of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants (and whereever else).

Say the Borg occupied hundreds and hundreds of planets.

Would Star Trek have to change that much? There are still thousands of other planets left.

Well, that's patently false isn't it? The Borg don't occupy, the Borg don't even assimilate now - they're out to utterly destroy the Federation, not become it.

I really think you're being overly dismissive of the whole thing and borderline offensive to the imagination and creativity of all the writers and everyone else involved in Destiny and its follow-up novels by grossly over-simplifying it all to 'the Borg attack, the Federation eventually win.'

Even if that is the incredibly basic version of the storyline, do you not think it might be worthwhile everything that happens in between, to the characters and places as well as the progression and outcome of the story?

 

[Dayton3]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Even if the Borg "won" the Star Trek universe could continue (not saying that is my preference)

Say the Borg beat back attempts to stop their invasion of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants (and whereever else).

Say the Borg occupied hundreds and hundreds of planets.

Would Star Trek have to change that much? There are still thousands of other planets left.

Right now there is only one series of books about a non-Federation crew. If the Borg defeat the Federation, the Klingons and the rest won't last much longer. So unless we want nothing but a series of books about the Organians or Telosians or Q, yeah the good guys have to win and win big enough for us to see stories about the Federation continue.

Not necessarily

 

[Dayton3]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Even if that is the incredibly basic version of the storyline, do you not think it might be worthwhile everything that happens in between, to the characters and places as well as the progression and outcome of the story?

No I do not.

 

[Idoliside]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Even if that is the incredibly basic version of the storyline, do you not think it might be worthwhile everything that happens in between, to the characters and places as well as the progression and outcome of the story?

No I do not.

Im registering the identity of a troll here, here's an idea (that i stole from one several posts back). Lets ignore all of this, till the book is out.

Oh and "added to ignore list". Clearly nothing you have to say ever has any relevance to anything...

 

[Dayton3]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

If everyone wants "wait until the book is out" then why is there a 29 page thread about it?

 

[HappyDayRiot]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Because we're interested in speculation and build-up and left our rose-tinted glasses on the bedside table?

 

[Deano2099]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

So what do you want Dayton3? A big pitched battle between the Borg and Starfleet that the Federation win through military power and tactics? Frankly if that's how it turns out I might even be a bit disappointed given that it makes no sense. Or perhaps you'd like the Captain of the USS-We've-Never-Heard-Of to arrive at the last minute and save the day. Which is the exact same thing as Picard doing it but less interesting.

I sort of think you're right. In the end the heroes probably will save the day. I just couldn't care less how it ends. To paraphrase a favourite singer-songwriter of mine, if you're all about the destination then take a frelling flight. Rather be going no-where slowly and seeing all the sights...

Still, heres's a practical suggestion. If you're that worried about the ending, just read the first two books. Job done.

 

[Dayton3]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

So what do you want Dayton3? A big pitched battle between the Borg and Starfleet that the Federation win through military power and tactics? Frankly if that's how it turns out I might even be a bit disappointed given that it makes no sense.

Yes that is what I would like to see.

And we have a number of examples of technologically inferior groups defeating superior technology militaries in our own history.

From the various barbarians defeating the Roman Empire to the U.S. being run out of Vietnam.

This is what I wanted to see regarding the Borg:

A sustained multi year campaign where the Borg invade the Alpha Quadrant and fight all the way to Earth before the tide turns. Followed by an ongoing campaign featuring the Borg being slowly driven back to the Delta Quadrant by the combined efforts of the Federation, Romulans, Klingons, Cardassians, Ferengi, Tamarans, Telarians, First Federation, Zalconians, and various other races and groups we've seen over the years of Star Trek.

Followed eventually, by a massive combined force that invades the Delta Quadrant and forces the Borg back to their world, picking up allies in the Delta Quadrant along the way from worlds that have fought the Borg for years (thus acquiring their technology and expertise to use against the Borg).

One key factor in the effort against the Borg being Starfleet being able to adapt and incorporate Borg weapons and technology into their own ships.

Elapsed time from the Borg invasion to eventual Borg defeat? 7-10 years.

 

[Thrawn]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Dayton3, I'm actually curious, no insult intended - why does our heroes defeating the Borg make the books invalid, in your opinion? I think a solid percentage of all Star Trek lit has our heroes saving the galaxy/federation/some planet in the nick of time after someone attacks or something goes wrong.

For instance, Vendetta follows much the same plot, and everyone (including myself) points to it as the epitome of Borg stories. A few ships defeat the Borg. Would Vendetta have suddenly sucked if the Borg cube had blown up a few more ships on its way to fighting the Enterprise?

I literally don't understand your complaint. I mean, if you're not interested in books where our heroes overcome bad odds, why are you here? Isn't that... most of them?

 

[Deano2099]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

So what do you want Dayton3? A big pitched battle between the Borg and Starfleet that the Federation win through military power and tactics? Frankly if that's how it turns out I might even be a bit disappointed given that it makes no sense.

Yes that is what I would like to see.

Fair enough. That sounds pretty dull to me but I can see where you're coming from. I just don't feel that that sort of militaristic solution really fits Star Trek but clearly we disagree there.

 

[ATimson]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

What do you want from me?

An own-universe SF novel.

 

[Dayton3]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Dayton3, I'm actually curious, no insult intended - why does our heroes defeating the Borg make the books invalid, in your opinion? I think a solid percentage of all Star Trek lit has our heroes saving the galaxy/federation/some planet in the nick of time after someone attacks or something goes wrong.

For instance, Vendetta follows much the same plot, and everyone (including myself) points to it as the epitome of Borg stories. A few ships defeat the Borg. Would Vendetta have suddenly sucked if the Borg cube had blown up a few more ships on its way to fighting the Enterprise?

I literally don't understand your complaint. I mean, if you're not interested in books where our heroes overcome bad odds, why are you here? Isn't that... most of them?

In Vendetta, the force of Borg cubes was ultimately defeated by the Planet Killer with assistance from the U.S.S. Enterprise, U.S.S. Chekov, and U.S.S. Repulse. Though technically, the Repulse destroyed one of the Borg cubes on its own.

I'm simply tired in Star Trek of "magic bullet, unstoppable hero" solutions.

That is what we've seen for the most part for the last 40 years.

One reason I hated the way the Dominion War was handled.

I prefer a World War II type of solution for what are clearly military problems. The Federation (United States) starts off the wars poorly and suffers major defeats, as time goes on, the Federation (United States) mobilizes and eventually builds big enough of a force to defeat anyone.

 

[Dayton3]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Why couldn't they have done something like Star Wars did with that powerful race invading the galaxy that was immune to the powers of the force?

It took years in both real and book time for the war to be won. And the results of that war still shake the Star Wars universe to this day.