Denobulan, Vulcan and human sexuality; bonding
- Thread starter ria 75
- Start date
- Status
I think what the problem was the writers weren't consistent with the races characteristics and when they changed things did it as a conveinance. For example Phlox we know was a very knowing experienced interspecies doctor --yet he didn't consider what he was asking T'Pol to do when he asked her to try the np with Trip.He assumed it would be just like a human overcoming shyness ignoring that Vulcan's are very different than humans and Denobulans in their relations with each other. He didn't ask T'pol he ordered her basically which I thought was a disservice to Phlox.T'Pol had thrown her lot in with Archer and had no recourse but to go along.
Wow -- I couldn't disagree more. She moved toward him in ZH? By telling him her age? Trip, imo, teased T'Pol about providing that "intimate detail," but I don't think she was "excited" about being called an old oil painting, nor did I see that as a sign of their undying love. I believed in ZH, they were back to their Spock/Bones egging on relationship of friendship. I thought, "Oh, they're back to normal." (Normal meaning the relationship of season 2.)
On Home, I never thought T'Pol invited Trip to Vulcan from a romantic standpoint. Nor did I see her as "excited" to invite him. I think she wanted a pal to go along and Trip said he didn't want to go home. (Odd that someone who just lost a sister and is family-oriented didn't want to see his family.) I think while they were on Vulcan, T'Les discovered that Trip had a thing for T'Pol ... but T'Pol didn't seem to return it. And actually, it's one of the reasons I didn't like T/T'P -- it's hard to see a guy get dumped and keep coming back for more punishment. In the end I saw T/T'P as unrequited love on Trip's side.
Now, I think T'Pol is fond of Trip. However, I never thought it was love (or whatever Vulcan equivalent there is). I think she enjoyed that someone was in love with her, and that endeared him to her in a way. She also enjoyed baiting (and being baited by him) as well as bantering with him.
OK, for the record - T'pol is not an idiot - She couldn't have possibly taken offense by that "old oil painting" line, she simply used it as an excuse to share the intimate information which was her way of letting him know that she considered him more than just a friend. Was she declaring her "undying love" with that? Certainly not. Was she in love with him? No one can know for sure, but if she was, she would never have let it show.
It certainly appeared that way. But Trip kept getting back for more sh*t because he was in denial. And his denial was caused by his infatuation with her (Because when you feel that way about someone, you don't really think straight, do you?).
All in all, I do think that she had feelings for him. Otherwise, she would never have bonded with him (again, I seriously doubt that the mating bond is caused only by sex).
"Old T'Pol"
Even though on the surface it was just her telling him her age, I think that by having her refer to it as "intimate", the writers were telling us that it was much more than her "just" telling her age. With only 42 minutes to tell the story, every word counts and there doesn't seem to be any way the writers would have bothered showing us that scene and having T'Pol utter those words if it wasn't meant to show us something important about their relationship. Consider that only a few episodes prior, she was barely speaking to Trip.
Whether or not we were being told that T'Pol had romance on her mind when she invited Trip to Vulcan is open to debate (as Mike Sussman once posted here, "she invited him because she wanted to"), I think that the point of showing her invite Trip to Vulcan was the writer's attempt to put the romance on a different track. We are shown on Vulcan that T'Pol's decision to marry Kos has a profound affect on Trip's feelings for T'Pol and on T'Pol's feelings for Trip. We aren't shown the news of her marriage having any affect of any kind on any other character (except T'Les). We were also being shown the way the relationship was going to play out during season 4 -- angsty. The trip to Vulcan was all about the romance.
BTW, T'Les also spotlighted T'Pol's feelings for Trip when she told T'Pol that Trip was the reason she refused to bond with Kos, and when she warned T'Pol about attempting to have children with Trip, and to a lesser degree, when she mentioned that T'Pol had never brought a colleague home before. So T'Les actually saw their feelings for one another.
Probably no surprise I totally disagree with you. Words do count, and those words don't say, "I love you, Trip." They say to me, "Ha, ha -- we joked once about age and now we're doing it again. That means we're back on the road to normalcy after a weird journey this past year." ZH was tying up of loose ends, not weaving new ones, except for the last five minutes ... which is why people call it the WTF last five mins. Why do I think it's the tying up of loose ends? Archer finally gets to destroy the weapon, Enterprise destroys the spheres that made the anomalies .... It resolves the entire arc, including Trip and T'Pol.
Sure. They're friends to her. Why wouldn't she? I've invited people to my house before and had no designs on them.
Trip's feelings for T'Pol - definitely. We see him devestated at the end of Home. T'Pol's feelings for Trip? Missed that. I think she doesn't want to marry Kos, but doubt she's been holding on to marry Trip. T'Pol kissed his cheek I think out of regret and thanks. Regret? "We've been on a weird journey and I know this is painful for you." It never looked like (to me): "I so wanted to marry you and not Kos."
I think Trip has also been a huge supporter and friend to T'Pol during her emotional journey. I'm sure that means a lot to her.
I missed where T'Les warned T'Pol about having children with Trip.
I think the whole idea of marrying Kos never appealed to T'Pol, from Breaking the Ice. It has nothing to do with Trip. I'll give you this: I think T'Pol is confused about Trip, not in love with him. If she loved him, I think she would've ended up with him by TATV. She didn't and the dialogue from TATV makes me think Trip has often thought about getting back together with her, but she rarely (if ever) about getting back together with him.
I'll also open up a can of worms, but might be interesting now that we can discuss ships. If T'Pol had to pick even between Archer and Trip (you decide why - even what I think you might classify "hero worship"), she'd pick Archer every time -- and has in various episodes.
T'LES: You've changed. Your emotions were always close to the surface, but you managed to suppress them. It's because of this Commander Tucker, isn't it? He's the reason why you refuse to bond with Koss. Do you really believe that a human and a Vulcan can have a future together? Imagine the shame your children would endure, assuming that the two of you could have children.
T'POL: That wouldn't be your concern.
Sure. If Coto had written it, it would probably be that way... But Braga and the other guy did it, so... You know the rest.
I'm actually glad you chose to "open a can of worms" because to me, disagreements and arguments about fictional stuff tend to be kinda fun.
I remember recently reading on startrek.com boards (at least i think it was there) that Blalock stated (at VegasCon or something) that T'pol would in fact pick Trip over Archer. Supposedly, Scott Bakula also said that all that Archer/T'pol stuff was only "In the minds of fans" and that there was nothing but friendship between those two. Now, I do know that ultimately, what Bakula and Blalock say, doesn't really matter, since the only thing that really matters is what was seen on screen... Wait... I never saw no A/T romance on screen. It was subtly implied in "Twilight" 
though, but there was this reset button thing at the end...
Last edited:
I don't think T'Pol loves Archer either. But, she does choose Archer over Trip.
Well, them's the brakes. Braga wrote it.
I think he's right. There's only friendship between the two. Maybe I didn't explain my ship very well. I never thought Archer was in love with her or vice versa. What I saw was a potential for a relationship built on friendship and caring.
As for Blalock, I was at the 40th anniversary convention and she said she personally didn't really like Trip/T'Pol, but supposed she could see what some people saw in it. She's also said during the series that she wasn't crazy about the Tucker relationship and didn't think T'Pol would go for him.
I didn't see "romance" on screen on Enterprise much at all -- Archer/T'Pol or otherwise. I did see a lot of potential and believe they should have done more of Twilight (suggested interest without implicit romance) with the series ending in the possibility of a relationship between the two. In other words, I was very happy with the relationship (friendship) I was given.
Well, them's the brakes. Braga wrote it.
I think he's right. There's only friendship between the two. Maybe I didn't explain my ship very well. I never thought Archer was in love with her or vice versa. What I saw was a potential for a relationship built on friendship and caring.
As for Blalock, I was at the 40th anniversary convention and she said she personally didn't really like Trip/T'Pol, but supposed she could see what some people saw in it. She's also said during the series that she wasn't crazy about the Tucker relationship and didn't think T'Pol would go for him.
Now, I do know that ultimately, what Bakula and Blalock say, doesn't really matter, since the only thing that really matters is what was seen on screen... Wait... I never saw no A/T romance on screen. It was subtly implied in "Twilight"
I didn't see "romance" on screen on Enterprise much at all -- Archer/T'Pol or otherwise. I did see a lot of potential and believe they should have done more of Twilight (suggested interest without implicit romance) with the series ending in the possibility of a relationship between the two. In other words, I was very happy with the relationship (friendship) I was given.
Hmm, but this is a sexuality thread, you know....
That I can understand. Archer/T'pol friendship could have evolved into something amazing (like Janeway/Tuvok, or even Picard/Guinan). Too bad it never got past that baseless hero-worship thing.
Ah, the infamous "Catfish-eating honky tonk man" remark. I remember thinking back then: "Now wait a minute lady, you're talking about my favorite character here!"
(Actually, I don't believe Blalock ever really changed her mind about that, she only pretended she did because the majority of fans expected her to.)
I don't see no hardcore AinTers here...trj said:
We're talking Star Trek here, not religion or politics. It's fictional, it's fun, and I don't see any insults in this thread.trj said:
^ Thanks!
Not baseless to me, and I never saw it as "hero" worship. I think she admired Archer b/c he brought in emotions (empathy, compassion, care) in a way that she didn't expect with outcomes that were many times superior to just logic alone. And I don't think it was worship, but I think her admiration is why she put herself on the line for him so many times.
I liked Archer -- unlike Trip, he was a balance of emotions and logic. Trip's charm was how emotional he was, which many times got him into trouble. I think the reason Archer is the captain is he has both. May not make him a "lovable" character to some, but makes him complex to folks like me.
Not baseless to me, and I never saw it as "hero" worship. I think she admired Archer b/c he brought in emotions (empathy, compassion, care) in a way that she didn't expect with outcomes that were many times superior to just logic alone. And I don't think it was worship, but I think her admiration is why she put herself on the line for him so many times.
I liked Archer -- unlike Trip, he was a balance of emotions and logic. Trip's charm was how emotional he was, which many times got him into trouble. I think the reason Archer is the captain is he has both. May not make him a "lovable" character to some, but makes him complex to folks like me.
And that's exactly why all those T'n'T shippers love that pairing so much. The fact that they are two complete opposites is what makes it so intriguing (I remember someone calling Tucker a "Yin to T'pol's Yang"Trip's charm was how emotional he was, which many times got him into trouble.
). "Opposites attract" stuff is always fun, especially on TV. Archer/T'pol romance would probably work better in real life, but on a TV show, it would have been boring.
That's a really interesting comment. Remember Moonlighting? (Well, you may not be old enough -- it was an 80s show with Bruce Willis.) The reason it died is they put the two "opposite attract" characters together and then ... they had nothing else to do. Suddenly the show dropped interest. Other shows do have characters who aren't opposite, but definitely don't gel at first and yet develop a friendship that leads to stronger feelings: Mulder and Scully (X-Files), John and Areyn (Farscape), Mal and Inara (Firefly), etc.
"Opposites" attract, I think is hard to pull off without caring and developing a friendship first. Besides, I liked that Archer and T'Pol didn't gel at first; he hates Vulcans and she thinks Enterprise is doomed. Through a series of successful and unsuccessful missions, they come to appreciate each other and depend on each other. I liked that.
By the way, thanks for being so respectful of others' opinions. I really appreciate that.
"Opposites" attract, I think is hard to pull off without caring and developing a friendship first. Besides, I liked that Archer and T'Pol didn't gel at first; he hates Vulcans and she thinks Enterprise is doomed. Through a series of successful and unsuccessful missions, they come to appreciate each other and depend on each other. I liked that.
By the way, thanks for being so respectful of others' opinions. I really appreciate that.
Actually, they showed reruns of Moonlighting here in Croatia a year ago or something. The show was cute and all, but I never really liked Cybill Shepherd... Never mind.
Yes, but were Maddie and David from two entirely different worlds? Were they raised in two completely different cultures, with completely different set of values? The possibilities for writers to explore a relationship between a logical (but a little screwed up) Vulcan, and an irrational passionate Human were limited only by imagination (something which, I guess, the writers of Moonlighting were running out of).
OMG, the Mulder/Scully romance was one of those things that killed the X-files for me (and God knows how much I loved that show). IIRC, even Chris Carter hated the idea, but bent under pressure from some of the more vocal groups of fans, and of course the studio execs. (Firefly and Farscape never grew on me, so I can't comment on that).
Agreed. T'pol being there for Trip in his time of need is one of those things that made season 3 worth watching for me, and I'm not talking neuropressure. "The Forgotten" comes to mind, a beautiful episode, and I wish Enterprise had more moments like the one when Tucker broke down before T'pol. That moment was all about friendship and caring.
But friendship is surely not the only thing needed for an TV-romance to work. Sexual attraction between the characters needs to be present, don't you think? T'pol and Archer IMO never really had that kind of chemistry.
One more thing, that made those two appear incompatible to me was the fact that Scott Bakula is (and did appear) old enough to be Jolene Blalocks father (even though T'pol was in fact old enough to be Archers mother
).
Last edited:
Wow - I'm not sure whether to be delighted or frightened that Moonlighting made it to Croatia.
No argument from me -- that's why I liked A/T'P. I did think Archer had -- as to my point earlier -- some logic to him and could listen to reason. He also seemed to have read Surak's teachings at T'Pol's gift (Two Days Two Nights) and showed general interest in Vulcans, including their noninterference policy.
There's, to me, a difference between total opposites (a guy who is totally emotional, often irrationally and sometimes charmingly, and a woman who mostly lacks emotion but is emotion-curious) and a balance (a guy who is sometimes emotional and sometimes logical and a woman who mostly lacks emotion but is emotion-curious).
Huh. I'm not really a shipper (I don't typically give a rip about relationships in television shows), but I liked Mulder/Scully. I thought, much like A/T'P, it was great when they just really cared about each other.
Interesting. I thought they had great chemistry, like in Andorian Incident, Shadows of P'Jem, Twilight, Azati Prime, Damage, The Forge, Awakening, Kir'Shara .... I can only think of a couple times when I was disappointed by their interaction for one reason or another (usually script, unless it was Carpenter Street, which I thought was a flat episode all the way around, except for the drive thru ordering). And as for Bakula being old enough to be her father ... really? I never thought that. I thought ANIS, Andorian Incident and Shadows of P'Jem were all sexy (showed great chemistry) without being silly. For example, the Decon scene in ANIS between Archer and T'Pol was fun because it was a dream. I think if that had happened in real life, I'd feel like it was silly. (There's a difference between characters dreaming about something and having it happen in reality.) Although, I think the sexier scene was at the funeral, also part of his dream, when she put her hand in his.
No argument from me -- that's why I liked A/T'P. I did think Archer had -- as to my point earlier -- some logic to him and could listen to reason. He also seemed to have read Surak's teachings at T'Pol's gift (Two Days Two Nights) and showed general interest in Vulcans, including their noninterference policy.
There's, to me, a difference between total opposites (a guy who is totally emotional, often irrationally and sometimes charmingly, and a woman who mostly lacks emotion but is emotion-curious) and a balance (a guy who is sometimes emotional and sometimes logical and a woman who mostly lacks emotion but is emotion-curious).
Huh. I'm not really a shipper (I don't typically give a rip about relationships in television shows), but I liked Mulder/Scully. I thought, much like A/T'P, it was great when they just really cared about each other.
Agreed. T'pol being there for Trip in his time of need is one of those things that made season 3 worth watching for me, and I'm not talking neuropressure. "The Forgotten" comes to mind, a beautiful episode, and I wish Enterprise had more moments like the one when Tucker broke down before T'pol. That moment was all about friendship and caring.
But friendship is surely not the only thing needed for an TV-romance to work. Sexual attraction between the characters needs to be present, don't you think? T'pol and Archer IMO never really had that kind of chemistry.
One more thing, that made those two appear incompatible to me was the fact that Scott Bakula is (and did appear) old enough to be Jolene Blalocks father (even though T'pol was in fact old enough to be Archers mother
Interesting. I thought they had great chemistry, like in Andorian Incident, Shadows of P'Jem, Twilight, Azati Prime, Damage, The Forge, Awakening, Kir'Shara .... I can only think of a couple times when I was disappointed by their interaction for one reason or another (usually script, unless it was Carpenter Street, which I thought was a flat episode all the way around, except for the drive thru ordering). And as for Bakula being old enough to be her father ... really? I never thought that. I thought ANIS, Andorian Incident and Shadows of P'Jem were all sexy (showed great chemistry) without being silly. For example, the Decon scene in ANIS between Archer and T'Pol was fun because it was a dream. I think if that had happened in real life, I'd feel like it was silly. (There's a difference between characters dreaming about something and having it happen in reality.) Although, I think the sexier scene was at the funeral, also part of his dream, when she put her hand in his.
Croatia is not exactly in the Delta quadrant you know (that show was on in Croatia all the way back in the late eighties...), and I don't even wanna start on all the crap that "makes it" here (last year one of the channels actually showed "Threshold" for god's sake
)This is kinda weird... Shadows of P'Jem? I don't think cleavage - diving counts as chemistry, that's just a lame attempt at humor.
ANiS? That one only showed that Archer was attracted to T'pol (and that he had wet dreams about her, and was sexually deprived). But hey, I suppose every male crew member (and couple of female ones possibly) had to fantasize about T'pol at some point, right?
You mentioned Damage? I do remember T'pol having (literally) wet dreams in that one, but...
Moonlightening. Fans drove the writers to make the couple on the show.
willlis and Shepard hated one another. It got to the point where it was a brawl on the set every day.
Willis nad Shepard were consumate professional actors who could do a love scene even thoug they destested one another.
If finally got to a point where one or the other or both wanted off the show that is why it ended.
There was another case very similar "I Love Lucy" Fred and ethel (Vivian Vance and William frawley) hated one another but they were professionals and were able to give good performances despite thier hated.
f I say what I feel about Trip and t-Pol and Archer and T-Pol I will bve sat on by the moderator so I pass one that.
willlis and Shepard hated one another. It got to the point where it was a brawl on the set every day.
Willis nad Shepard were consumate professional actors who could do a love scene even thoug they destested one another.
If finally got to a point where one or the other or both wanted off the show that is why it ended.
There was another case very similar "I Love Lucy" Fred and ethel (Vivian Vance and William frawley) hated one another but they were professionals and were able to give good performances despite thier hated.
f I say what I feel about Trip and t-Pol and Archer and T-Pol I will bve sat on by the moderator so I pass one that.
- Status
